Wanted: [Need Met] - Progressive Industries PT50C

[pokey]

Originally Posted by benf

Thanks again for your help

I had to go out for a bit. Your very welcome.

[pokey]

Originally Posted by 67L48

I have nothing against Pokey and wish him well. I'm not trying to be argumentative or change his mind. However, he has conflated surge protectors with EMS devices to the point where there are incorrect statements floating around in this thread. I don't want this misinformation to confuse would-be readers. Again, nothing personal and I'm sure Pokey is a great guy.

Surge protectors will protect against a spike in power. This is a sudden and massive increase in voltage and current. For this reason, most surge protectors are rated in energy (e.g., Joules), voltage, and response time. When a local power transformer blows or a lightning strike hits, you need that device to be super fast to break the circuit and not allow that power to zap your devices.

That's it. That's the limit of protection you get from surge protectors. There are lots of debates about how well they can respond to lightning, due to lightning's capacity and speed. But, I will leave that alone. Surge protectors protect from sudden, significant spikes in power (voltage, current). If the surge gets through, it zaps your connected devices. It's catastrophic. Surge protection is insurance against the one-in-a-thousand event.

Within RV parks, in particular, there are lots of other power anomalies. Floating neutral, hot ground, and other "crossed wires" can exist. These can be the result of sloppy wiring, old fixtures, or some fault in the campground's electrical system. But these polarity issues can cause wear on the circuitry of your RV and its appliances, even if those devices have means to help overcome those anomalies.

There is also wider variation in supplied voltage than we might see in our homes/houses. US devices are built to operate on 120 VAC. The NEC has fairly tight tolerances on how to build/design electrical systems to provide a tight window of supplied potential. Devices are designed, typically, to operate at a wider range than the NEC specs.

What happens in low voltage and high voltage conditions?

We must remember the governing Ohm's Law and the interplay of potential, current, power, etc. In many devices, as the internal resistance remains constant, if there is an overvoltage condition, the current will increase (V = IR). The higher current flow will damage and cause wear on wiring, insulation, and other components. Not good.

But what about motors and devices that self-adjust to deliver constant power? Refrigerators, furnace motors, and other devices do this. Here, we need to consider that P = VI. So, as V goes down, the current must go up to deliver the same power, P. So, low voltage conditions will cause your motors to undergo higher current conditions and wear out faster. Devices with motors can be quite expensive.

These low and high voltage conditions are not surges. They are much more subtle and wouldn't trip a surge protector.

Surge Protectors, like the Progressive SSP-50X mentioned by Pokey, will effectively block the huge power surges from frying your RV appliances. They will do nothing to prevent low and high voltage power from slowly killing your RV appliances. That Progressive device (and other premium surge protectors like it) will also monitor for polarity (wiring) problems mentioned above -- they do, in fact, have some detection there. They will monitor for these things. However, they will NOT protect against them. If you're not there to see the warning lights and physically pull the plug, that faulty power will be passed along to your RV.

Similarly, surge protectors will not detect low or high voltage conditions mentioned above and will do nothing to protect against them.

The EMS does all of the above. It has integrated surge protection, so it has the catastrophic disaster protection. But, most importantly, it protects your RV from the more insidious low and high voltage conditions. And, even more importantly, it does this in real time, adapting to the dynamics of the supplied power.

Power might be great on Thursday afternoon. But, bySaturday, the park might be full of rigs running ACs on high. Voltage dips. Surge protector does nothing. EMS blocks the offending power from entering your RV and allows power back in when the voltage rises (or falls) to an appropriately safe level.

The rig next to you might cause an electrical fault at his pedestal and suddenly your ground goes hot. The surge protector might detect this and show a light, but it won't protect you. The EMS will detect this and block the offending power from entering your RV.

That's the difference between Surge Protection and EMS. More can be learned from a google search.

The Hughes Autoformer is completely different beast. It also has surge protection. But, it's not an EMS, either. It detects low voltage conditions, like an EMS, but doesn't do that for high voltage. It also won't block power in some of the other conditions (like hot neutral and polarity issues).

If your EMS detects low voltage or some other problem, it blocks power. You're safe, but you have no power.

If the Autoformer detects low voltage, it actually corrects it up to 10%. So, instead of going dark with an EMS, you get improved power and the lights stay on. Nice!

However, as mentioned, it doesn't help with the other conditions or electrical fault modes. High voltage? It passes that along. Floating neutral? It passes that along. It acts like a common surge protector in those conditions.

Also, what if you're in a particularly nasty place putting out 91 VAC? Autoformer bumps this to 100 VAC and passes it along, even though it's too low ... and EMS would have blocked even 100 VAC. Is it likely that you'd be in a condition that was so low that even the Autoformer correction wouldn't be enough? Probably not, but just illustrating that the Autoformer doesn't ever prevent power from being passed along ... it only detects low voltage, corrects by up to 10%, and passes that along. Cool device, but limited.

I haven't seen a single device that does the EMS stuff along with the Hughes Autoformer stuff. No one-box solution that I have seen.

Hope this helps.

Hey 67L48, It's all just discussing a topic that's all. I admit I'm not as familiar with the EMS uses so may have put out a bit of wrong info on them. I read more about them and they are pretty much for a cover all bases type to use. You mentioned the parks with different type rigs, 50 and 30 amp messing with amperage, there is where I can definitely see the EMS types very useful. I'm not in that type of environment so I decided on a good surge protector. As a matter of fact the one I started to purchase was the Progressive model with EMS and maybe should have because you can never go too far with protection on the electronics. Anyway like I said it's all just discussing and hopefully a few learned what type they needed for their rig. Cheers!

[bob213]

Thanks 67L48. Great explanation. Hopefully people will take the time to read it and digest it. I have an autoformer and ems and feel well protected. (Pedestal, autoformer,ems,trailer)

Back to JS415 (OP)...
Post your 30 amp ems in the classifieds here and it will be gone in no time. Then get the 50 amp you need. You already have one offer for the 30 amp

[Mch5jdm]

Hey 68L48 - what are your thoughts on the Camco 55301 30A version? The reason I ask is that I only camp 4-8x per year. I want to be safe but my wife will kill me if I dropped 350 on the PI version. Thoughts?

[kcmusa]

"I haven't seen a single device that does the EMS stuff along with the Hughes Autoformer stuff. No one-box solution that I have seen."

APC makes UPS's that do all this, but at a price.
Boost and Trim Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) Gives higher application availability by correcting low and high voltage conditions without using the battery (not available on all models).
Power conditioning Protects connected loads from surges, spikes, lightning, and other power disturbances.

(Higher end) UPS systems are much better than any EMS or surge protection, but you pay for them $$$.

[js415]

Originally Posted by benf

Jerry. Let me know if you are interested in selling your 30 amp model and what you would want for it. Thanks!

If I decide to sell it before I buy another one, I will let you know first.

Still looking for the model I want, but nobody wants to let go of one!!

Thanks,

Jerry

[lewisra]

Originally Posted by js415

If I decide to sell it before I buy another one, I will let you know first.

Still looking for the model I want, but nobody wants to let go of one!!

Thanks,

Jerry

If benf doesn't want it, I do.

[Kaadk]

Originally Posted by benf

Thanks Pokey. This won’t protect against brown outs right? From what other campers have told me they are a major issue. I mostly camp at high end rv parks so I’m not terribly worried either way but figure if I do buy one I might as well install one like this for a few bucks more.

Hardwired EMS-LCHW30 RV Surge & Electrical Protector https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004A32CGI..._d3C4Ab25KP6XR

Originally Posted by Mch5jdm

Hey 68L48 - what are your thoughts on the Camco 55301 30A version? The reason I ask is that I only camp 4-8x per year. I want to be safe but my wife will kill me if I dropped 350 on the PI version. Thoughts?

Let me see if I can answer both these highlighted points with a single story:

When I first bought an EMS, I picked up the Surge Guard one because it was at Camping World on the shelf and I was at the store. I knew PI was the more recommended model, but since they didn't ship to Canada, I figured the SG was good enough. The SG only lasted 2 seasons. At first it quit working if it was sitting at an angle, so I always had to make sure it hung straight down, then eventually, it quit working all together. I was at a KOA at the time (Niagara KOA) which I had been to a few times before and I knew I had never had a problem there. I just went without the SG and plugged into the pedestal. Figured I'd finally deal with the whole ordering of the PI and shipping it to a PO box in the US that I could go pick it up at when I got home.

We did the week long camping with no visible signs of issues. When it came time to go home, I couldn't undo the power cord from the trailer. It wouldn't twist. Thankfully I keep a couple of strap wrenches on board in my tool kit, so getting one out and on the cord, I managed to finally release it. This is what I found:



Trailer and cord has since been repaired.

And after finding out the SG was out of warranty, and that I'd have to pay to have it fixed, we now own a PI EMS instead.

[MDCampingDad]

I just posted, or attempted to post a for-sale listing for my EMS-PT30X ... not sure if it will go through since I'm new around here, but if you're interested PM me.


I am also in the market for a EMS-PT50X if anyone is looking to sell/trade.

[Brewhedd]

Originally Posted by 67L48

Also, what if you're in a particularly nasty place putting out 91 VAC? Autoformer bumps this to 100 VAC and passes it along, even though it's too low ... and EMS would have blocked even 100 VAC. Is it likely that you'd be in a condition that was so low that even the Autoformer correction wouldn't be enough? Probably not, but just illustrating that the Autoformer doesn't ever prevent power from being passed along ... it only detects low voltage, corrects by up to 10%, and passes that along. Cool device, but limited.

Aren't auto transformers a violation of electrical code?

[GL1800Rider]

The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park. It does not affect
the park or source voltage, or make electricity. What it DOES is change
the voltage (amperage relationship), lowering the amperage requirement
by raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage with
lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better
service is enjoyed from your RV.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by Brewhedd

Aren't auto transformers a violation of electrical code?

I hope not. I've been installing them over 45 years.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by pokey

I do understand the difference between a surge protector and an EMS. The surge protects and the EMS monitors and protects. To each their own I guess right?

A surge protector protects for high voltage spikes ONLY. Some will show correct wiring. AN EMS will turn the power off if it gets below 108 volts. A surge protector cannot do that. If the voltage gets above 108 The ems will turn it back on. An ems will turn the power off if the voltage gets above 132. A surge protector cannot do that. Ems well turn it back on. You AC will love an EMS. Add an autotransformer and you're in heaven and your EMS will be sleep walkin'.

[Brewhedd]

Originally Posted by GL1800Rider

The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park. It does not affect
the park or source voltage, or make electricity. What it DOES is change
the voltage (amperage relationship), lowering the amperage requirement
by raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage with
lower amperage, less overall power is used from the park, and better
service is enjoyed from your RV.

Same power consumption, P=V * I

[js415]

UPDATE>>>>>>


I have found the PT50C I was looking for.


This thread can be closed.


Thanks,


Jerry

[Mr. Dan]

Originally Posted by js415

UPDATE>>>>>>


I have found the PT50C I was looking for.


This thread can be closed.


Thanks,


Jerry

We'll add the phrase "Need Met" to your title although we don't actually close such threads.