Charger/Converter

NWJeeper · 02-26-2010, 04:48 PM

Now that we have the Trimetric battery meter installed I have been able to confirm what I had suspected all along about the converter/charger (Parallax 7465) on our Georgetown. That is that it is a worthless piece of crap.

The meter confirms that it will only put out a maximum of 13.6 volts. Although it will taper down to just milliamps for storage it will never fully charge the batteries let alone equalize them which is necessary for long battery life.

In order to equalize and or fully charge the batteries a charger MUST be able to supply 14.4 volts to the bank. If it does not then you are just cooking your batteries and lessening their life span.

The search is now underway for a good battery charger/converter.

If you always use hookups in a park then this is of little concern for you but if you are like us and dry camp a lot then it is of vital importance.

TulsaSteve · 02-26-2010, 06:35 PM

Parallax seems to have a different point of view... I don't dry camp much at all, so I'm sticking with the stock gear.

I guess it comes down to the batteries that you've got and what the manufacture says they need to stay happy.

http://www.parallaxpower.com/ESM%20f...ry%20Charging?

NWJeeper · 02-26-2010, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TulsaSteve

Parallax seems to have a different point of view... I don't dry camp much at all, so I'm sticking with the stock gear.

I guess it comes down to the batteries that you've got and what the manufacture says they need to stay happy.

http://www.parallaxpower.com/ESM%20f...ry%20Charging?

Seems that Parallax is trying to justify their crappy product on their site. Most other soruces I have found state that your batteries MUST be equalized from time to time in order to keep them healthy and to provide full charge, this requires a voltage of at least 14.4 volts to do this. On most battery system monitors like the Trimetric they will not conisider the batteries to be fully charged untill they see a voltage of 14.4 volts, which the Parallax will never provide.

If you have a Parallax with the timer option, ie. the model number has a "T" at the end of it then it does provide the higher charge voltage for a period of 13 hours before it drops the voltage to a float level.

Even my solar charge controller puts out 14.4 volts so I don't trust Parallax and their propaganda.

Again if you don't dry camp it's not a big issue, however most other information available states that your batteries will not last as long if they are not given an equalization charge periodically. The Parallax will not do this.

TulsaSteve · 02-26-2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWJeeper

Even my solar charge controller puts out 14.4 volts so I don't trust Parallax and their propaganda.

Again if you don't dry camp it's not a big issue, however most other information available states that your batteries will not last as long if they are not given an equalization charge periodically. The Parallax will not do this.

The best option would be for Forest River to offer an option to upgrade the device for folks that will dry camp. I can understand why this model is a good base model, but it sucks to pay for it and then have to upgrade.

Hopefully you can get a few bucks for it on eBay or Craigslist.

cfsoistman · 02-26-2010, 08:23 PM

That's one of the many features on my Xantrex RS3000 Inverter / Charger. It is 3 stage charger with the battery monitor and thermostat attached to the battery so it charges properly each time. The equalization is a manual procedure that I generally do about every 45 days. I just wait for a nice day, open the door, remove the step cover over the batteries and let it go. I'm usually doing something else out there so I keep an eye on it.

Crossfire · 02-26-2010, 08:39 PM

This is a great thread for everyone to read. There seems to be a lot of misinformation on proper battery charging going around. I have three solar panels with a charge controller made by AM Solar. Their charge controllers have the three stage battery charger with temperature sensor. If you check their website; they have a great explanation on 12 volt batteries and how they should be charged. It is written in easy to understand terms and would be a great help to newbies.
This summer at a bike rally I had two high end motorhomes parked on each side of me. Their were no hookups; and, after the first day the owners were frantic as their fridges weren't working. They had no idea what was going on. I took out my voltmeter and found that out of their 2- 12 volt batteries only 10 volt was showing for each. They couldn't understand why their batteries would be bad when they kept them plugged in all the time and their motorhomes were only 2 years old. One set of batteries was completely dry; (not a drop of electrolyte left).

NWJeeper · 02-26-2010, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crossfire

This is a great thread for everyone to read. There seems to be a lot of misinformation on proper battery charging going around. I have three solar panels with a charge controller made by AM Solar. Their charge controllers have the three stage battery charger with temperature sensor. If you check their website; they have a great explanation on 12 volt batteries and how they should be charged. It is written in easy to understand terms and would be a great help to newbies.
This summer at a bike rally I had two high end motorhomes parked on each side of me. Their were no hookups; and, after the first day the owners were frantic as their fridges weren't working. They had no idea what was going on. I took out my voltmeter and found that out of their 2- 12 volt batteries only 10 volt was showing for each. They couldn't understand why their batteries would be bad when they kept them plugged in all the time and their motorhomes were only 2 years old. One set of batteries was completely dry; (not a drop of electrolyte left).

Wow, not surprising to me as many RV owners don't understand it a whole lot. I have found converter/chargers that can replace the Parallax made my WFCO and Xantrex that are true 3 stage charger with proper voltages for right around $200. I can't think that FR can be saving that much money by using the Parallax converters at this price stage.

Will be buying something different very soon.

TulsaSteve · 02-27-2010, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWJeeper

Wow, not surprising to me as many RV owners don't understand it a whole lot. I have found converter/chargers that can replace the Parallax made my WFCO and Xantrex that are true 3 stage charger with proper voltages for right around $200. I can't think that FR can be saving that much money by using the Parallax converters at this price stage.

Will be buying something different very soon.

Times like these are when I take deep breaths and say "I paid $50K+ less than others so that I could upgrade what is important to me." over and over until I find my happy place. Then I say "Honey where is the Mastercard?"

mbtelguy · 02-28-2010, 09:49 AM

Before anyone goes out and replaces the RV converter, it would seem logical to determine what the batteries require, as identified by the battery manufacture, not some voltage target that the converter manufacture indicates that it can provide.
Also just as important as voltage ( maybe even more important) is the specific gravity of each individual cell.
By the way, according to the Trojan Batteriy site a fully charged battery will have an open circuit voltage of 12.73 and a specific gravity of 1.277.

NWJeeper · 02-28-2010, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbtelguy

By the way, according to the Trojan Batteriy site a fully charged battery will have an open circuit voltage of 12.73 and a specific gravity of 1.277.

Yes this is true, but to properly equalize your bank and provide for longer battery life it requires between 14.4 and 15 volts from time to time. This is true of all wet cell batteries regardless of manufacturer. A converter that cannot do this is not right for the job if you are worried about battery longevity.

Curently I am seeing really good feedback from owners who have changed their conveters over to WFCO brand. Also looking at PDI with the Charge Wizard. Will be contacting Best Converters in the morning to ask more questions.

mbtelguy · 02-28-2010, 11:34 AM

By the way WFCO voltage test is with the all loads disconnected ( batteries included ) how did you measure the voltage. If you did not disconnect every thing ( like you would with a WFCO converter ) maybe this why your converter is providing in your opinion an low voltage.
Also on the Parallax Model 6345 the voltage is adjustable I suspect this is true for the
7465 also. The adjustment is in the cabinet . Maybe a check with Parallax would provide
you with more information in this regard.

Gary

mbtelguy · 02-28-2010, 11:45 AM

Soory I posted twice.
By the way, the WFCO voltage test is performed with the batteries disconnected. Under what conditions did measure the voltage?
Also the Parallax Model 6345 volage is adjustable ( adjustment is inside the cabinet ) i think if you check with Parallax you may find out that the 7465 has the same feature.

NWJeeper · 02-28-2010, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbtelguy

Soory I posted twice.
By the way, the WFCO voltage test is performed with the batteries disconnected. Under what conditions did measure the voltage?
Also the Parallax Model 6345 volage is adjustable ( adjustment is inside the cabinet ) i think if you check with Parallax you may find out that the 7465 has the same feature.

I'm going by Parallax's own documentation which states that the max voltage for the 7465 is 13.6 volts. It is a self contained unit and not adjustable. Sorry, but 13.6 volts is not good enough no matter how you slice it or who makes the charger.

Either a WFCO or a PDI with Charge Wizard will be ordered tomorrow.

TulsaSteve · 02-28-2010, 04:12 PM

If you dry camp and/or use solar I would say that you must get the higher voltage to properly care for the batteries. Hopefully you can sell the Parallax and recoup some of the cash.

If Forest River is watching.. PLEASE offer a "dry camping option". Swap the parallax for a WFCO or PDI, pre-wire for solar panels and install a 1500-2000W true sine wave inverter in the mix.

I bet you could do the whole deal for less than $1000 net new cost and you could charge us $2000K easy. I have an EE degree and this crap is complicated for me!

NWJeeper · 02-28-2010, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TulsaSteve

If you dry camp and/or use solar I would say that you must get the higher voltage to properly care for the batteries. Hopefully you can sell the Parallax and recoup some of the cash.

If Forest River is watching.. PLEASE offer a "dry camping option". Swap the parallax for a WFCO or PDI, pre-wire for solar panels and install a 1500-2000W true sine wave inverter in the mix.

I bet you could do the whole deal for less than $1000 net new cost and you could charge us $2000K easy. I have an EE degree and this crap is complicated for me!

I like the way you think Steve.... You should be designing motorhomes!

mbtelguy · 02-28-2010, 07:33 PM

Steve, I agree this is a very complex issue, with many points of view. My point is that a person should not make a decision based on one factor eg. voltage, in fact battery manufactures will tell you the true indication is specific gravity. Also battery temp. is also a major factor when charging. That is why the RS3000 has a battery temp sensor.
I think best upgrade for dry camping would buy the best batteries eg. true deep cycle and a separate charger.

NWJeeper · 02-28-2010, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbtelguy

Steve, I agree this is a very complex issue, with many points of view. My point is that a person should not make a decision based on one factor eg. voltage, in fact battery manufactures will tell you the true indication is specific gravity. Also battery temp. is also a major factor when charging. That is why the RS3000 has a battery temp sensor.
I think best upgrade for dry camping would buy the best batteries eg. true deep cycle and a separate charger.

Mbtleguy,

You seem to be really hung up on specific gravity. Specific gravity is the best way to make sure that each cell is healthy and it's true state of charge but I fail to see what your problem is with my decision along with 1000s of other RVrs who have decided to care for their batteries in the best way possible and by battery manufacturer and industry standards by choosing to change to a quality 3 stage charger from a 2 stage charger.

I have made the switch to Trojan T-125 6volt deep cycle batteries over a year ago. I have 260 watts of solar panels on my roof. The charge controller for the solar panels is a true 3 stage providing 14.4 volts when needed to care for my batteries.

So exactly what is the issue with wanting and requiring the same type of charging quality out of my converter/charger? Are you saying that a 2 stage is sufficient over a 3 stage charger? If so why?

The long and short of it is that it is MY money I am spending, not yours. It is MY battery bank and I feel I am making a very good and sound decision in how I am maintaining it. My decision is not based on only "one factor" but research I have done using data gathered from industry leaders like Trojan, Exide, Xantrex, WFCO as well as the testimonials of many other RVrs who have been doing the dry camping thing for much longer than I have and those who have also made the decision to change to 3 stage chargers. Are you saying ALL those people are wrong?

It's obvious from your posts you don't agree with my decision, I get it. However it is my decision, my rig, my $1200 battery bank that I have to pay for if it gets screwed up and for that fact I am going to spend what it takes based on the best information out there how to care for it, not just one factor like specific gravity!

For what it's worth a WFCO or PDI 3 stage converter/charger only runs about $200 give or take, slightly more than I have paid for 1 battery in my 6 battery bank. I think it is a very wise decision to pay the money for a good 3 stage charger and stop killing them with the worthless converter supplied in my rig. And yes I do own a hydrometer and yes I do check SG on a normal basis.

mbtelguy · 02-28-2010, 08:50 PM

nwjeeper
It looks like I touched a nerve.

First I do not think at any time did I suggest that you not buy a new converter.

My main objective was to introduce other factors so that others reading this forum (which you have suggested a number of times may not understand the complexity) have food for though.

I sure you agree that readers of this or any forum should not follow blindly facts present on a forum.

It is unfortunate that you have taken my comments suggestions personally

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