DEF info

hkreck · 10-18-2012, 11:16 AM

I was reading up on DEF fluid today and wondered if some of you folks have? What I saw was that DEF has a shelf life of about 2 years, and that it will freeze at about 12*F. The storage tanks in are suppose to expand to allow for the freezing expandition of the fluld to 7%. Any one else know any thing about DEF that we should maybe pass on to others? I started wondering about the freezing during storage of the MH sometimes our temps get well below 12*F during the winter for long periods of time.

EJM4 · 10-18-2012, 11:45 AM

That about sums it up. If you are driving, the tank is to have a heater installed to keep it liquid. There is no harm to the fluid when it freezes and thaws.

pwrstroke2012 · 10-18-2012, 11:45 AM

Here is a link to more info about def.
DEF Overview - discover Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)
I don't know much about when you store a vehicle with DEF and it freezing. I drive my truck year round. Hope this helps.

crasher · 10-18-2012, 11:55 AM

I have a box in the back of my truck - it's BlueDEF which is the only brand I've seen and used - get at Walmart and Advanced Auto. I'll check the label to see where it freezes.

Last winter had some fairly cold days - around 15F - never had a problem starting up and driving away. I would think if the DEF tank was frozen solid, the truck would not start, or at least alarm until it heated up.

From the document in the link -

"Aside from helping the environment the biggest benefit of SCR for vehicle owners is the fuel saving which the technology provides. Because SCR deals with emissions in the exhaust pipe, engineers are able to tune the engine to provide more torque and reduce fuel consumption.

For example, Detroit Diesel's BlueTec technology boasts up to 5% better fuel economy and Cummins has said its EPA 2010 technology delivers a 5-7% fuel efficiency saving compared to EPA 2007. However, SCR systems require a regular top-up of DEF."

Did not realize that mpg and torque are increased by the SCR system. Makes me scratch my head as to why some guys are talking about modding their trucks to do away with it.

TURBS · 10-18-2012, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I have a box in the back of my truck - it's BlueDEF which is the only brand I've seen and used - get at Walmart and Advanced Auto. I'll check the label to see where it freezes.

Last winter had some fairly cold days - around 15F - never had a problem starting up and driving away. I would think if the DEF tank was frozen solid, the truck would not start, or at least alarm until it heated up.

From the document in the link -

"Aside from helping the environment the biggest benefit of SCR for vehicle owners is the fuel saving which the technology provides. Because SCR deals with emissions in the exhaust pipe, engineers are able to tune the engine to provide more torque and reduce fuel consumption.

For example, Detroit Diesel's BlueTec technology boasts up to 5% better fuel economy and Cummins has said its EPA 2010 technology delivers a 5-7% fuel efficiency saving compared to EPA 2007. However, SCR systems require a regular top-up of DEF."

Did not realize that mpg and torque are increased by the SCR system. Makes me scratch my head as to why some guys are talking about modding their trucks to do away with it.

Some may think if the government mandates it then it must be worthless and power robbing.

Remember when catalytic converters came out!

ironj · 10-18-2012, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Did not realize that mpg and torque are increased by the SCR system. Makes me scratch my head as to why some guys are talking about modding their trucks to do away with it.

the reason is, that while the def system alows for better mpg and torque it has to do with egr and the actual TUNING of the vehicle....the def in and of itself does not provide a DIRECT power benefit, but allows the engineers to build in more power in stock form while still adhering to epa mandates.....so you have a cleaner truck that gets better hp and torque in STOCK form when compared to non urea based systems that pump a lot of exahust back into the motor for emissions reasons....

there is still a considerable ammount of additional "aftermarket" tuning that can yield even better performance, and take away the percieved "hassle" of adding def....

with that said, mine is tuned AND i still have the def, dpf, and egr intact...

joelek · 10-18-2012, 09:41 PM

Hmmm I keep hearing the new pickups with DEF get worse mileage than the older ones that didn't run def. When the new trucks go into regen to burn off the soot in the DPF, they use extra diesel fuel. The regen cycles is what kills fuel mileage. I'm a Ford guy and maybe they figured it out on the brand new 6.7L engines but the 6.4 version supposedly gets poor mpg compared to a non DEF 6.0 engine.

How Dodge and their Cummins diesels pass emmissions without running DPF/DEF is beyone me. Ford and Chevy have to do it. Ya I know, Cummins is better. LOL! Before you know it, Chevy will have CAT engines. Ford got burned by International so no way are they going to change for awhile.

TURBS · 10-18-2012, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joelek

Hmmm I keep hearing the new pickups with DEF get worse mileage than the older ones that didn't run def. When the new trucks go into regen to burn off the soot in the DPF, they use extra diesel fuel. The regen cycles is what kills fuel mileage. I'm a Ford guy and maybe they figured it out on the brand new 6.7L engines but the 6.4 version supposedly gets poor mpg compared to a non DEF 6.0 engine.

How Dodge and their Cummins diesels pass emmissions without running DPF/DEF is beyone me. Ford and Chevy have to do it. Ya I know, Cummins is better. LOL! Before you know it, Chevy will have CAT engines. Ford got burned by International so no way are they going to change for awhile.

Isn't Ford's new engine a twin Turbo?

ironj · 10-18-2012, 10:03 PM

New diesel is a single sequential turbo...variable vane....

And the def has nothing to do with the regen process....that is Regen is to clean the soot out of the dpf...and it does make mileage drop but only for 8-10 min by dumping raw diesel into the exhaust

The real old trucks don't have a dpf or def..6.0 was privy to higher sulfur fuel and no dpf or def....hence better mileage and lots of black puffing

GASPEDDLER · 10-18-2012, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by f1100turbo

Isn't Ford's new engine a twin Turbo?

No, it uses a single sequential turbo charger. Basically it's a single turbo with dual turbo characteristics.

ironj · 10-18-2012, 10:20 PM

I will say that one thing I HATED about the regen process is you have no control over it , and if you interrupt it, it won't hurt anything , but the truck will try and restart the regen every time you go somewhere....mine always seemed to start a regen as I was pulling in the garage!!...if you have a tuner or even just a gauge module like the edge insight , you can see the dpf percentage..and I think even on some you can force a regen....

joelek · 10-19-2012, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironj

New diesel is a single sequential turbo...variable vane....

And the def has nothing to do with the regen process....that is Regen is to clean the soot out of the dpf...and it does make mileage drop but only for 8-10 min by dumping raw diesel into the exhaust

The real old trucks don't have a dpf or def..6.0 was privy to higher sulfur fuel and no dpf or def....hence better mileage and lots of black puffing

Yup I was amazed at the clean tailpipes on the new Fords. In stock tune my 6.0 emits little to no black smoke. The 7.3 was a puffer!

Good article on DEF here. It's for semis but the technology and discussion applies to pickups also.
http://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdf...es/MB10033.pdf

crasher · 10-19-2012, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joelek

Hmmm I keep hearing the new pickups with DEF get worse mileage than the older ones that didn't run def. When the new trucks go into regen to burn off the soot in the DPF, they use extra diesel fuel. The regen cycles is what kills fuel mileage. I'm a Ford guy and maybe they figured it out on the brand new 6.7L engines but the 6.4 version supposedly gets poor mpg compared to a non DEF 6.0 engine.

How Dodge and their Cummins diesels pass emmissions without running DPF/DEF is beyone me. Ford and Chevy have to do it. Ya I know, Cummins is better. LOL! Before you know it, Chevy will have CAT engines. Ford got burned by International so no way are they going to change for awhile.

GM doesn't need to change out the duramax. It's a terrific engine. Coupled with the allison tranny, it's the best combo out there. Mine gets much better mileage than the pre-DEF chevy trucks that some of my buddies have. Also the tailpipe is amazingly clean. Even my gas trucks have soot in their pipes - not my duramax truck.

I'll probably buy a 2014 if the styling/interior/features are noticeably improved. Otherwise, I'm happy to keep running this one until the wheels fall off.

EdJunior · 10-19-2012, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wincrasher

GM doesn't need to change out the duramax. It's a terrific engine. Coupled with the allison tranny, it's the best combo out there. Mine gets much better mileage than the pre-DEF chevy trucks that some of my buddies have. Also the tailpipe is amazingly clean. Even my gas trucks have soot in their pipes - not my duramax truck.

I'll probably buy a 2014 if the styling/interior/features are noticeably improved. Otherwise, I'm happy to keep running this one until the wheels fall off.

And I'll say the same thing about the new Ford. My '08 6.4L got pretty bad mileage. But the new 6.7L I'm able to get between 20 and 23 on the highway (unloaded), and close to 19 on my daily driving. I don't do any typical "city driving", so I can't speak to that. My towing is between 10 and 12. Clean, quiet, and very powerful. It's a thing of beauty.

Lynkage · 10-19-2012, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdJunior

And I'll say the same thing about the new Ford. My '08 6.4L got pretty bad mileage. But the new 6.7L I'm able to get between 20 and 23 on the highway (unloaded), and close to 19 on my daily driving. I don't do any typical "city driving", so I can't speak to that. My towing is between 10 and 12. Clean, quiet, and very powerful. It's a thing of beauty.

I would have to agree. My 2012 with 1800 miles on it got 12.9 mpg towing 14,000lbs on I-70 from Denver to Moab and back. I was very happy with that!!

MillerTime · 10-19-2012, 10:43 AM

Def systems have heaters, and start-up does not require def- giving it time to warm up. Never heard of it freezing solid but it does get slushy at 32.5% mix if it gets cold enough( it is rated to 11 or 12 deg. F. at that mixture)

Def systems DO get better mpgs then the prior dpf only systems, and guess what more epa changes for 2014 and then again in '17 or '18 and yes boys even cummins is not imune to def, its comming.

Seems that I have removed dpfs on dodges durring frame swaps, and I just read that the 6.7 uses a dpf since 07, but thankfully I hardly ever work on them- talk about cramped under a hood!

ironj · 10-19-2012, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynkage

I would have to agree. My 2012 with 1800 miles on it got 12.9 mpg towing 14,000lbs on I-70 from Denver to Moab and back. I was very happy with that!!

ya know, for the first few months i owned my truck i pretty much thought all these people claiming 11-12 mpg towing 12k+ were full of it!!!...

ill be the first to admitt mine gets decent towing mpg, i have never seen more than 11.2 avg hand calculated....

having had to opportunity to travel with 8-10 diff ford owners this past year has been rather enlightening......i have seen with my own two eyes, and handy calculator on my phone, some getting 12+mpg towing well south of 12k lbs...same roads as me, same diesel as me....so im slowly becoming a believer....tho my truck has never seen those types of numbers towing, my last trip to dallas netted 23.4 mpg at 70+mph...not bad for a 8k lb small apartment of a LIFTED truck!

...the real trade off versus older diesels is COST...all this epa stuff and ULTRA low sulpher diesel makes it a lot more expensive than back in my pappys days! haha

murry52 · 12-25-2012, 01:39 PM

Owners of dura max diesel be very careful Not to Overheat your motor, these motors are aluminum and will not tolerate much heat that diesels require to operate properly

MillerTime · 12-25-2012, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murry52

Owners of dura max diesel be very careful Not to Overheat your motor, these motors are aluminum and will not tolerate much heat that diesels require to operate properly

What?
Honestly nobody should ever overheat any engine, and on almost every engine either the head or block is aluminum and have been for the past decade. I have worked for gm dealers for years and never once heard of a d-max heat/ meltdown failure- only the '05s would run a little warm at times.
Ps. We have about 30-60, 100° days a year here.

Cajun Po-Boy · 12-25-2012, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murry52

Owners of dura max diesel be very careful Not to Overheat your motor, these motors are aluminum and will not tolerate much heat that diesels require to operate properly

ANY diesel can get overheated, especially towing heavy under a strain in high temps, get EGT temps 1500 degrees or more for longer than 5 minutes and no matter what brand engine you have...your melting gaskets, stretching studs, etc and your in trouble, no matter hat you drive! Be Careful

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