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Old 12-09-2009, 11:29 PM   #1
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It's So Easy A Caveman Can Do It #1

At this time I would like to express my views and comments on the latest poll that I started on "licences and certifications on hitch work" based on my experience three years ago. I was towing a 29' Fleet Wood Mallard 5 years prior to this new camper with the same hitch system " The Reese weight distribution and sway control system" and never had a problem, but the new camper needed the 12000 lbs spring bars.
I bought a 2006 Rock Wood 8314ss new and I was towing with a 1997 GMC Suburban 3/4 ton. The Mechanic that normally does the hitch Installation was out of work due to a back injury, so someone else stepped in and was filling in for that job.
On our first time out with the new camper we were headed to Hershey Pa, at that time all seemed good, I was on US-15 and headed to I-76 the Pa Turnpike. The Turnpike speed limit is 65 mph, as I merged on to the Turnpike I was increasing speed, once I hit 51 mph the tow vehicle and camper started to sway from left to right it was so bad the sway toke me into the left lane and back into the right lane again, this happen about 4 or 5 times before I could get it under control. I pull off of the road and checked the hitch, the camper tires and the tow vehicle as well and could not fine any thing wrong. Then I started out again and the same thing happen at 51 mph the second time, pulled off the road again and inspected everything all over but could not find nothing. I started out again but keep my speed at 45 mph until I reached my destination. About an 1/2 hour went by after I was parked in a site with the camper unhooked I looked down at my rear tire on the Suburban and it was flat. I took the tire off and had it checked and there was nothing wrong with It.
While I was camping that weekend I called the service department and made an appointment to bring It back. When I arrived at the shop the men that normally does the hitch work was back on the job, by the way he was the one that did the hitch work on my Fleet Wood. I explained what was going on as he was inspecting the hitch system, a few minutes went by and all he could do was shake his head, he said to me will the first thing is that the hitch is too low he had to flip It up-side-down to get the proper height, he also notice that the tow vehicle and camper was not straight when the spring bars saddles were installed, one was an inch farther forward then the other, the chain length was not pulled up tight enough, at this time I would like to say that the Mechanic had marked the link of chain that I was to uses. The "U" bolts that connect the chains to the spring bar saddles were installed backwards, this was causing them to twist upwards instead of It pulling straight up. The question I ask was how could this have happen and out of the Mechanics mouth was "A lack of training". My next question was " if I would have lost complete control and flip my camper and cause damage to my tow vehicle and to other vehicles and bodily injury do to improper hitch work who is responsible? ....I never got a clear answer on that. So just to clarify the title of this thread, I don't care if a Caveman is doing hitch work so long as he has been trained and to me a license and or a certification is in order for this kind of work as far as I am concern. This tells me that a person has taken the time to go to school and has been tested, that they want to do the best job possible, and those that are certified will put there best foot forward. This could be a matter of life or death. I agree with one of the replies, a license and or a certification will not eliminate a mistake we all are human but when one is educated in an occupation especially when life can be altered along with time and experience in the field the mistakes are limited and by having a trained eye the mistakes will be noticed much easier and quicker. I will go to a person that is licensed and or certified, this separates the people that care because it is there livelihood, then a fly-by-night that's looking to make a quick buck and has no regards for you and your family.....
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:12 AM   #2
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Rockwood06

Thanks for the poll and a review of the information learned. Sorry for your bad experience, and thankfully you kept coll and did what you had to do, slow down and maintain control. As for the thing with the u-bolts installed wrong, the Reese instructions at one time were printed incorrectly on the u-bolt installation. Now who's at fault? Also you stated "My next question was " if I would have lost complete control and flip my camper and cause damage to my tow vehicle and to other vehicles and bodily injury do to improper hitch work who is responsible? ....I never got a clear answer on that." I can answer that and say the driver is responsible. He or she will get the citation. It is then their problem to go after the mechanic/installer, or whoever. No different if you bought a load of lumber and Lowe's loaded it, then you lost it on the highway, the operator's fault. Pilots do a walk-around of their airplane before every take-off, and they have the final say-so. We also have the final say-so when we hitch our rigs.

Last point and I'll be quite. When you found the regular hitch guy was out of work, you had 2 options, let someone else do it, or go to another shop that has a hitch guy on duty. You chose to let someone else do it. You could have gone somewhere else, or waited. You made the final call. Also it would be very hard and expensive to reconstruct after an accident. There is a post on here somewhere where a guy lost his trailer, it came unhitched during the accident. From the pictures he posted, I questioned whether or not he got the ball latched properly?
That's one answer we'll never know. And after I bought my camper last year, my hitch wasn't setup properly either, and this was done by the "hitch guy" at the camper place. There are several post on here about setting up a hitch, and how to, because apparently, no shop can. Most have had to get the directions and go back and do it on their own.

Hope I didn't offend anyone, but as a certified mechanic, I have seen some shoddy work done by irresponsible people. I wish we could go and take their tools away and lock their doors, but we live in a free country, and they have a right to run a business. We also have a right not to go there.
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:13 PM   #3
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.... I can answer that and say the driver is responsible. He or she will get the citation. It is then their problem to go after the mechanic/installer, or whoever. No different if you bought a load of lumber and Lowe's loaded it, then you lost it on the highway, the operator's fault. Pilots do a walk-around of their airplane before every take-off, and they have the final say-so.....
Good points Windrider. I have seen very highly trained and licensed aircraft mechanics screw up too and that IS the very reason we do a walk around and thorough pre-flight before we take flight. It is also the reason why my dad and I did all our own maintenance (legally allowed) on our aircraft. We knew it was done right that way.

I hope I don't come across as though I'm pointing the finger at Rockwood but the reality of how our laws work is exactly as Windrider put it, the operator is responsible just as a pilot is the final authority over every action and consequence of the operation of his aircraft. The operator is the one that would get the citation although in a lawsuit I do also believe the operator would prevail if they were to bring suit against the hitch installer for shoddy work too.

Although certification and a license would prove that the individual has completed a course of study on the subject it wouldn't ensure that that individual can read and understand instructions. Remember that statistics show that the average American reads and comprehends at a 7th grade level. Precisely why I don't trust my equipment to others if I don't absolutely have to.

Rockwood's experience though does make a strong argument towards at least making sure that these guys have at least had some training and is a compelling argument for licensing and I must say he has made me rethink my point of view on this issue.

I am glad though that Rockwood's situation worked out safely and his experience and skill in driving saved a potentially deadly outcome.
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Old 12-10-2009, 05:12 PM   #4
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I originally took the position that certification wasn't worth much because it would give the public a false sense of security. After reading this I'll expand my position.

Showing the average camper a certification from "Hitches R' Us" school of hitching probably won't mean much. Heck, it might be a justice of the peace school and the guys marries folks while they get there campers fixed.

What would mean something is a real deal towing/hitch/braking system school. Your employer or you pay a few grand for some real training, you pass an exam and you are formally certified. The key to making this work is that the dealer would need to see a discount on their insurance that gives them a good ROI. The employee likes it because it sets him/her apart from other folks.
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Old 12-10-2009, 06:55 PM   #5
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Was this the dealer where you got the camper? Please let me know which dealer. You can PM if you want.

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Old 12-10-2009, 10:10 PM   #6
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Rockwood06

Thanks for the poll and a review of the information learned. Sorry for your bad experience, and thankfully you kept coll and did what you had to do, slow down and maintain control. As for the thing with the u-bolts installed wrong, the Reese instructions at one time were printed incorrectly on the u-bolt installation. Now who's at fault? Also you stated "My next question was " if I would have lost complete control and flip my camper and cause damage to my tow vehicle and to other vehicles and bodily injury do to improper hitch work who is responsible? ....I never got a clear answer on that." I can answer that and say the driver is responsible. He or she will get the citation. It is then their problem to go after the mechanic/installer, or whoever. No different if you bought a load of lumber and Lowe's loaded it, then you lost it on the highway, the operator's fault. Pilots do a walk-around of their airplane before every take-off, and they have the final say-so. We also have the final say-so when we hitch our rigs.

Last point and I'll be quite. When you found the regular hitch guy was out of work, you had 2 options, let someone else do it, or go to another shop that has a hitch guy on duty. You chose to let someone else do it. You could have gone somewhere else, or waited. You made the final call. Also it would be very hard and expensive to reconstruct after an accident. There is a post on here somewhere where a guy lost his trailer, it came unhitched during the accident. From the pictures he posted, I questioned whether or not he got the ball latched properly?
That's one answer we'll never know. And after I bought my camper last year, my hitch wasn't setup properly either, and this was done by the "hitch guy" at the camper place. There are several post on here about setting up a hitch, and how to, because apparently, no shop can. Most have had to get the directions and go back and do it on their own.

Hope I didn't offend anyone, but as a certified mechanic, I have seen some shoddy work done by irresponsible people. I wish we could go and take their tools away and lock their doors, but we live in a free country, and they have a right to run a business. We also have a right not to go there.
I understand what you are saying about waiting for the right person or going ahead to another dealer,This is the point I am trying to make, If I went to another dealer and the hitch was installed, then how would I know If this new person at another dealer knows what he is doing, go through the samething as I did. It's like this when people buy a camper and need hitch work they depend on the service department to install there equipment correctly and explain how it is to be used because most people do not know what to look for it is all new to them. This is one reason I fell strongly about this issue. A license and or a certification will not make anyone perfect, but in order to get one a person has to be exposed to the material for the trade now what he does with it is another story. So as far as I know this other person at my dealer that did the hitch work should have known what he was doing and who am I to question is education after all he works for the service department, Maybe the shop Supervisor made the wrong decision and gave him a job he couldn't handle at a near cost to me.
As far as the "U" bolts go that was not the major issue of my camper going out of control but it was just one other thing that was installed incorrectly.
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Old 12-10-2009, 10:48 PM   #7
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After letting the "experts"" do some installs for me I do all my own installs.
A few years back I needed an electronic brake control installed and took my vehicle to U-Haul and had to make a special appointment so their expert could do the wiring.
It was a discusting mess with wiring loosly running down the firewall, tie wrapped to exhaust(I kid you not) and wiring plug left in rear cargo area to be strung out from tailgate when needed. Then the hitch was fastened with only 2 bolts.
Luckily I discovered before any towing.
Have since installed Dual Cam hitch and Signature 5th wheel just by reading installation literature that was provided by manuf and all work with zero issues.
Too bad some so called experts cannot follow manufacturers manuals as that is all it requires.
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Old 12-10-2009, 11:27 PM   #8
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One more point worth making. I am an ASE Certified Master Tech. I also do state inspections, but don't have any power other than to fail a car for inspection and let them drive it off, no matter how unsafe it may be, bakes, tires, steering, etc. This is controlled by the state and not the shop owner. But will the shop owner require a certified a tech to install a hitch set-up on a vehicle for a trailer that it isn't capable of pulling? Who is responsible if you overload your vehicle, whether it be with a trailer or cargo? Just another thought. Wish I had the answer.
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Old 12-10-2009, 11:27 PM   #9
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I agree that the installation guy should definitely have training and knowledge of what he (or she) is doing, when installing a hitch. That is a good arguement on why you should go to a large RV sales and service dealer, at least there, your chances should be greater on finding a reputable installer, that does this type of work more often than the little guy. Not saying they're better, mind you, just that they SHOULD be better. When I bought my unit, they sent me home with the new camper and a "friction brake" sway controller that mounts to the side of the tongue, and the other end to the hitch. Now, I only live about 8 miles from this dealership, and I got on the expressway (65 mph) for about 5 miles max. before I get off at my exit. I was scared to death from the swaying, and not being able to see around this beast! As soon as I got home, I called the sales guy to see what I needed to do to get this resolved. They set me up with the reese dual cam, and mirror extentions, and then it was okay. My point is that these guys do this a lot, and should know what you'll probably need to get the job done SAFELY. That should be a reqirement at all of these RV dealers to have at the very least one or 2 guys that know what to do. Randy
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Old 12-12-2009, 11:59 AM   #10
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For now, since there is no proof of education and it must mean "On The Job Training" I suggest to the newcomers to the world of RVing, educate your self on this issue as many of us already have, call the manufacture, ask questions and get written instruction just so you can make sure that the hitch system is installed correctly. Believe me there is nothing like traveling down the road towing a travel trailer and it is all over the place, I keep a roll of toilet paper in the truck now and added it to my check list..... Please be SAFE.
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:11 AM   #11
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For now, since there is no proof of education and it must mean "On The Job Training" I suggest to the newcomers to the world of RVing, educate your self on this issue as many of us already have, call the manufacture, ask questions and get written instruction just so you can make sure that the hitch system is installed correctly. Believe me there is nothing like traveling down the road towing a travel trailer and it is all over the place, I keep a roll of toilet paper in the truck now and added it to my check list..... Please be SAFE.
I have talked with very few employees at service locations whom I felt really knew what they were talking about when it came to hitches. Ironically, one of the seemingly brightest people I have talked to about hitches was at a place that works mostly with utility trailers.

For the most part, hitches are not really that complicated or hard to understand if you have some level of mechanical aptitude. I am certainly at the lower end of the scale - possibly a by-product of working with computers all my life. When I purchased my last trailer, my hitch was not properly installed and adjusted resulting in trailer sway at high speeds if anything passed me. The electrical cord was also pinched between the trailer frame and weight bar. I pulled out the hitch instructions and discovered for trailers with a 6 inch frame, a ball with a 2 inch rise needed to be used. The two inch rise created a larger gap between the bars and the bottom of the frame.

Once all was leveled back out, I still had to adjust the weight in my trailer to get the tongue weight correct.

My point;
1. You do have to know how to install the hitch correctly. Often the manual can explain how to do so. In most cases it is not too difficult to do, but you must follow the instructions and catch little things like the need for a unique ball. (Which costs $30 and had to special ordered.)

2. Even with a properly installed hitch, there is still some responsibility on the owners part to have the trailer and vehicle properly loaded.

Later,
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Old 01-02-2010, 03:56 PM   #12
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Rockwood: Your story is pretty scary. You have every right to be p.o.'d too! My neighbor has an Airstream and he told us the story of how his sister and brother-in-law tried to pull a trailer with a truck that was too small ( a story similar to yours, in a way). It started swaying back and forth, they lost control on the interstate, there was a horrible accident and BOTH of them were killed. This is what could have happened.

In my mind, there is no excuse for this kind of poor training. You are really lucky this did not end in a tragedy.
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:25 PM   #13
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You know, it seems like most people have a lot of trust in there dealers service department and that is fine. Maybe most people have not been behind the wheel of a swaying tow vehicle with 3 1/2 tons connected to the rear, but if some one in the Government looses a family member do to an issue such as this then maybe it will be looked at a little harder. This maybe a long time coming, they have Condos.
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:17 AM   #14
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Exclamation

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You know, it seems like most people have a lot of trust in there dealers service department and that is fine. Maybe most people have not been behind the wheel of a swaying tow vehicle with 3 1/2 tons connected to the rear, but if some one in the Government looses a family member do to an issue such as this then maybe it will be looked at a little harder. This maybe a long time coming, they have Condos.
This would be great! We would have idiots from the government taking control of something else. You would not be able to fix a hose or change a fuse without a permit. I installed a hitch setup on my HTT by my self by following the directions that came with the hitch. I did this after watching the tech. at the dealer try to read the directions and then ask 2 other tech. people questions. So I read the directions and followed them step by step and had the hitch installed correctly and was on my way in 45 miniutes. I am a retired engineer and you all know that engineers can't do anything. The government would have political appointees stacked 5 deep telling you how to do it and then charging you to have to listen to them.
Quote:
I suggest to the newcomers to the world of RVing, educate your self on this issue as many of us already have, call the manufacture, ask questions and get written instruction just so you can make sure that the hitch system is installed correctly.
This person is correct. You need to at least understand what is involved and check everything for your own satisfaction.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:05 AM   #15
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As someone once said "Trust But Verify". Trust your dealer to do it, then verify they did it correctly. The instruction that came with my Equalizer were very good. After I installed and adjusted it I called Equalizer support. The support person verified my measurements were correct and gave me his name without me asking. He said after towing if I had any problems or concerns to call him back. After towing the rig for 1400 miles I have no problems, it tows like a dream. I have learned in 63 years that most "experts" don't know as much as I do and I am no "expert on anything. As for "guvment" licenses or certification, they are to easy to obtain and are no indication that the license holder knows what he or she is doing.
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Old 01-04-2010, 11:23 AM   #16
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As someone once said "Trust But Verify". Trust your dealer to do it, then verify they did it correctly. The instruction that came with my Equalizer were very good. After I installed and adjusted it I called Equalizer support. The support person verified my measurements were correct and gave me his name without me asking. He said after towing if I had any problems or concerns to call him back. After towing the rig for 1400 miles I have no problems, it tows like a dream. I have learned in 63 years that most "experts" don't know as much as I do and I am no "expert on anything. As for "guvment" licenses or certification, they are to easy to obtain and are no indication that the license holder knows what he or she is doing.
This sounds exactly like our government in Washington DC. They have a title and don't have a clue what they're doing!!!!!! Worse part is they don't care what we want just whatever suits them.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:39 PM   #17
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My two cents: First I have to say that my dealer where I just purchased a new TT is a small town dealer, not one prone to a large mechanical staff, saying that, the staff has very little turnover and the experienced employees have earned their positions through hard work. My recent purchase and hitch installation was not only completed in a timely manner, but with flaweless performance.

As for the economic influences: The booming economy of recent years has inflated prices, inflated the cost of living, and hit the labor industry with poorly educated and unskilled personell willing to work for the low pay, leaving large companies with no choice but to promote the competent to supervisor and management positions, who are supposed to train and supervise those who actually perform the tasks.

Before I offend anybody, there are exceptions to all of this, some incompetent people are advanced, and there are some excellent hard workers are left to perform the tasks... but these are the exceptions.

What's left, any given dealer probably has the accredited personell to do the job correctly, but it doesn't mean the accredited person is actually the person performing the task.

Take the construction industry for instance. Electricians are certified and state licensed, but they are not necessarily the ones who pull the wires, connect the circuits, etc, but they do so under the electrician's license. I have a friend who is a licensed electrician who is in constant demand... even with the current economic slump... because he is out there fixing all the problems in the houses which were built in the previous 8-10 years, because the electricians were at one time so overwhelmed with new construction and the demand to complete the jobs in record time, and the errors which were made by the "bulk" installation practices.

Doctors vary greatly, each of whom are certified, licensed, and governed, but you know what they call the guy that graduates last in his medical school class? they call him Doctor.

What the government needs to focus on rather than another group to regulate the certification process is to minimize government oversight and put money towards improving and stabilizing the economy, limiting inflation, and insure that the guy installing the trailer hitch is experienced because he can afford to live on the wages available for his labor position, therefore the employer can keep his employees, less turnover means better experienced technicians, more experienced technicians means higher quality results.

We see this everywhere in the RV industry, take a look at the fabrication of the RV's, In the world of the poor economy, the industry is unable to pay for quality labor, therefore they pay out the yingyang in warranty work, as so many stories here in this forum confirm.

Government oversight (and certification) is not the key, rather a strong economy which supports employee longevity, which results in higher quality products and service.

For what it's worth....
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Old 02-17-2010, 08:04 AM   #18
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flyrotor, your 2 cents is right on target. I've been in the HVAC field for almost 35 years and have seen the building booms and declines. As you stated during the boom time most contractors plug holes with a body just to try and keep up with the demand. I've been involved with a project that started out with a 14 month schedule and after being 2 months into it the general contractor cuts 3 months off the schedule because now he's being pressured by the owner of the project. What it all boiled down to was the owner had another project starting and promise the contract to the general contractor if he finished early. So as they say "IT FLOWS DOWNHILL", requiring more bodies to complete the work but not necessarily done 100% correct.
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