Cold Weather Camping

[Bobbyj]

Originally Posted by gordonsick

On our 2015 34QS, I often wondered whether the tank heater works. Then, I noticed that turning it on caused a a small current draw in the Magnum Remote panel. Something like 7 or 8 amps, as I recall, so that is only about 100 watts, at best, and it doesn't add any noticeable heat to the fresh water tank.

In cold weather, I always fill the tank, even when I see insulating tape around the pipes at the campground. If I freeze their tap with a hose connected, I could be liable to them for a repair bill.

In the passenger side of my water bay, I removed the useless white panel and installed an interior car warmer on the wall. They are popular in Canada. I run it continuously at the campground when the temperature is cold, and it keeps my bathroom and kitchen floor warm. It does warm up the water in the manifold, because it comes out warm when I first open a cold tap. Then, it cools off when it starts to supply tank water.

Our hot water manifold has a spare outlet, so installed a hose bib on it so that I can run hot water into the fresh water tank fill. That way, I can cycle the hot water into the fresh water tank if I can't get the power to run the heater that I installed on the other end. I've never used it yet, though. The one foot whip hose from my Camco water filter fits beautifully for this job.

Our Girard Gen II on-demand heater will turn on by itself to warm up the pipes in the heater if they get really cold. It is a documented feature of the unit, and has worked for me. Note that this heater is located outside the insulated walls of the coach.

--Gordon

Dear Gordon,

Just be careful with the warm water fresh tank. Warm/Hot water always freezes before cold. (Sounds crazy, but it is true, has something to do with the hydrogen bonding of the water molecule that chemists still can not figure out.)

My best,

BobbyJ
State College, PA

[Oscarvan]

Originally Posted by Bobbyj

Dear Gordon,

Just be careful with the warm water fresh tank. Warm/Hot water always freezes before cold. (Sounds crazy, but it is true, has something to do with the hydrogen bonding of the water molecule that chemists still can not figure out.)

My best,

BobbyJ
State College, PA

ONLY if you remove the heat source with the ambient temperature below freezing. If you keep it warm it won't freeze.

I'm also not sure the effect is pronounced enough to have to be "careful".

The "Mpemba effect" you speak of explained here: https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv...t-d8a2f611e853

[MartyQ]

Has anyone added 120V receptacles to their water pump and water manifold compartments? If so, how did you do it?

[Oscarvan]

I have not but have considered it..... here's the options I see:

Tie in to the outlet right front compartment. Either go through the compartments (there are steel dividers) or go down through the floor and zip tie an extension cord back to the water bay. Not elegant but it works. On a side note, there is no opening with a little hatch (for decorations etc) in the bottom of my front right compartment (why the heck not is another story) so putting one in needs to be done anyways.

The other option is to do basically the same thing from the block heater outlet in the left rear.... That would lead to plugging/unplugging a lot as they are both in play in cold weather.

Or, do a "real" outlet and go up through the floor and find a source. It would have to be a GFI outlet. (The previous two "solutions" both tie into a GFI protected outlet....)

Up to now I've been running a cord outside to the right front and nothing when driving....

[MartyQ]

Originally Posted by Oscarvan

I have not but have considered it..... here's the options I see:

Tie in to the outlet right front compartment. Either go through the compartments (there are steel dividers) or go down through the floor and zip tie an extension cord back to the water bay. Not elegant but it works. On a side note, there is no opening with a little hatch (for decorations etc) in the bottom of my front right compartment (why the heck not is another story) so putting one in needs to be done anyways.

The other option is to do basically the same thing from the block heater outlet in the left rear.... That would lead to plugging/unplugging a lot as they are both in play in cold weather.

Or, do a "real" outlet and go up through the floor and find a source. It would have to be a GFI outlet. (The previous two "solutions" both tie into a GFI protected outlet....)

Up to now I've been running a cord outside to the right front and nothing when driving....

Thanks. Like your ideas! Think the easiest will be to run a heavy duty (12-3) extension cord from the front right compartment to the water pump compartment. Will have to drill 4 holes thru the compartment dividers. Will use plastic snap bushings. Will have to cut off the receptacle end on the extension cord to snake the cord thru the snap bushings, and wire to an outlet. Seal the bushings with RTV. Found a couple of inexpensive ceramic heaters at Menards.

https://www.menards.com/main/heating...7710987&ipos=6

What think? Think a pair of 350W ceramic heaters is sufficient (for 15-20 degF and above)?

[Oscarvan]

Originally Posted by MartyQ

What think? Think a pair of 350W ceramic heaters is sufficient (for 15-20 degF and above)?

I think 700W should do the job.... but I'm not a professional. I have 750 in there set for 45º and it's never run out of oomph down to the high teens.

[gordonsick]

Originally Posted by MartyQ

Has anyone added 120V receptacles to their water pump and water manifold compartments? If so, how did you do it?

There is 120V junction box in the ceiling of my storage bay that has the sliding tray. The junction box feeds the microwave and other outlets. Since the microwave is a 20 amp dedicated circuit, I tapped into it and put a GFI outlet on the wall of that bay beside my gas outlet. Then, I run a flat power cord to the water bay beside it for my heater, between the bay doors and the rubber gasket. I could have drilled through the wall, but it is more hassle.

BTW, the GFI trips (or shows red) when I'm on the inverter. Probably because the neutral is not bonded to ground on the inverter. It is bonded to ground when on the generator or shore power. So, I need to be on those two to put heat into my water bay. OTOH, I don't want to drain my batteries heavily by running a heater off the inverter.

–Gordon

[Oscarvan]

Originally Posted by gordonsick

BTW, the GFI trips (or shows red) when I'm on the inverter. Probably because the neutral is not bonded to ground on the inverter. It is bonded to ground when on the generator or shore power.

I had the same problem with my cockpit outlets which are off the GFI outlet in my half bath. It would frequently but not always trip on inverter and not reset until I was either on shore or generator power.

PITA as all the phones/pads with various nav and related apps were charging while driving.

I finally replaced the GFI outlet with a new one. Hasn't done it since. I assume your inverter is a modified sine like mine, and I guess some outlets are more finicky about that than others.

[btritschler1437]

This has been a good discussion and an interesting read. Hope Gordon & Oscar can attend the April Berkshire rally to compare notes and inform the others about cold weather camping. Oscar maybe I'll see you next week at Fort Wilderness.

[edgewant]

I too noticed when camping in sub freezing temps my Girard HW heater would never turn on to prevent freezing. I got so concerned that at last years Perry FMCA rally I spoke with the Girard reps. They gave me a replacement temp sensor. I went ahead and replaced it but decided to check my old sensor. Stuck it in the freezer. Checked it after a few hours and the sensor had a closed circuit. When it warmed up I heard it click and checked for continuity and the sensor/switch was open.

Per the Girard rep it’s probably the location of the hot water heater. It backs up to an open area below the closet on my 390RB. Probably stays pretty warm and is the reason I’ve never heard it turn on in cold temps.

[dave-g]

So my driveway camping is over-(6 weeks while remodeling the house) we had some nights in the 20's. I put a small heater by the water pump, removed the "useless white panel" so heat could rise up and over the tanks.


I had a remote thermometer tucked behind the water pipes in the wet bay (drivers side), and it stayed in the high 40's. Left the remote display next to my bed so I could check it easily at night.



I had the heater set to the 750 watt position and at a low setting.


I left the Truma in the "comfort Position" so it stayed 125 degrees all night.


I think I'm going to pick up a heater to mount in the wet bay, the portable worked great in the driveway but a mounted one would be great while driving.

[Bobbyj]

Dear MartyQ,

As far as adding 120 V receptacle in the wet bay..., I found a receptacle in the previous bay on the wall that services the central vac. That is where I ran my 120V wire for the space heater in the wet bay. Hope this helps.

Regards,

BobbyJ
(in cold and snowy State College, PA)

[gordonsick]

Originally Posted by Oscarvan

I had the same problem with my cockpit outlets which are off the GFI outlet in my half bath. It would frequently but not always trip on inverter and not reset until I was either on shore or generator power.

PITA as all the phones/pads with various nav and related apps were charging while driving.

I finally replaced the GFI outlet with a new one. Hasn't done it since. I assume your inverter is a modified sine like mine, and I guess some outlets are more finicky about that than others.

Oscar,
The idea of changing the GFI is a good one. I'll try it. I do have the old Magnum inverter that is a stepped sine wave. The new white ones are "pure sine". That might be an issue. [I'm not keen to change my Magnum unit because I'm hoping that the parent company Sensata (which does a lot of fancier stuff) will come out with a Magnum replacement that works on Lithium Ion cells. I've not seen any announcements, but it seems like an obvious move.]

But, I'd also be interested if someone could provide more information on whether the transfer switch also switches the way the neutral bonds to ground. Electrical codes require the the neutral be bonded to ground at only one point. If you are on shore power, that would be at the post, or, more likely the campground panel that feeds the post. I read some documentation that says the generator bonds the neutral to ground when it runs, so I assume that the switch is done at the transfer switch.

So, that is why I was thinking that running on the inverter prevented me from getting the GFI to work properly. OTOH, my bathroom plugs, which are GFI, do work on the inverter. So, maybe it really is a marginal GFI that I have. I'll check it when I get back to my coach.

–Gordon

[gordonsick]

Originally Posted by btritschler1437

This has been a good discussion and an interesting read. Hope Gordon & Oscar can attend the April Berkshire rally to compare notes and inform the others about cold weather camping. Oscar maybe I'll see you next week at Fort Wilderness.

BTritsschler,
I contacted Karen about the rally. She said it is full, but put me on a wait list.

–Gordon

[AlexG]

I use 200 watt heaters on each side of the water bay and it is sufficient to keep me from freezing in negative temps.

My furnace has a vent into basement and my tank heater is on. The only issue I have is the water heater supply line above the engine. When it dropped to low teens it froze on me during the last trip I took over the holidays.

[mikeborny]

I just ran an extension cord from the front right storage compartment to the water bay. There is enough of a gap between the waterbay and basement wall, but the front wall of the basement was sealed with foam. I thought of drilling through the wall before I noticed a taped section on the top front left of the front storage bay. I was able to create a hole in the foam insulation and work the extension cord through the top of the front storage bay.