Quality and Workmanship is CR@P!

[gasman94]

Originally Posted by Flybob

I have said this before in response to these questions: We ( FR buyers) are part of the problem. If we refused to buy FR products until quality improved, it would improve quickly. They are selling everyone they can produce. What is their motivation to change anything?

Who's products would you buy that would be any better?

Rich

[fander]

In my line of work I have had exposure to a few thousand employees over the years and have run into very few that don't want to do a good job. Employees are typically a lot smarter than their bosses give them credit for. If you tell an employee to go punch the time clock, work hard for eight hours, don't say anything, and then go home you aren't going to end up with a quality product. If you ask that same employee to look for ways to make the product better and faster and listen to what they say you have a lot better chance at quality.

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by fander

In my line of work I have had exposure to a few thousand employees over the years and have run into very few that don't want to do a good job. Employees are typically a lot smarter than their bosses give them credit for. If you tell an employee to go punch the time clock, work hard for eight hours, don't say anything, and then go home you aren't going to end up with a quality product. If you ask that same employee to look for ways to make the product better and faster and listen to what they say you have a lot better chance at quality.

Good insight in my opinion....

[mud yapster]

Originally Posted by Flybob

I have said this before in response to these questions: We ( FR buyers) are part of the problem. If we refused to buy FR products until quality improved, it would improve quickly. They are selling everyone they can produce. What is their motivation to change anything?

The other problem like in my case when I bought my new 5er a year ago. I've had tents, pop-ups and TTs. I had a 97 model TT Mobile Scout 33' i bought used in 2000, in all those years I didn't have one issue with it except I replaced the brakes and tires once and replacing a pee trap that froze and broke.
I had never bought a new RV before and didn't think ahead enough to know they have issues of pooop for craftsmanship. So we shopped for 6 months trying to find a large unit that wasn't gear toward kids and sleeps 8 plus people. We are 2 with a little dog and just want a big rig for 2. We found our 42' Columbus and loved the floor plan so we bought it. Now I can fix most anything electrical, mechanical, plumbing ect... So the farthest from my mind was expecting to fix this thing out of the box, its new not used. I didn't get a PDI to speak of and didn't know anything about a PDI. My fault, I also didn't know they weren't set up like car dealers and want to make you happy after the sell, they don't care I found out and they are shade tree repair people Jack's of no trade let alone professional technicians. I had to work on our 5er for about 3 weeks every evening to correct the factory pooop. We love it now.
I found out just how sorry these dealers are after I returned my RV the very next morning after purchase and they fixed nothing but said they did and tested it several time. Shady bunch of folks they are for sure.
I'm sure if I was close to the FR factory they could taken care of all and any issues because they are professionals.
I would feel confident FR at the factory will make it right but not at there trusty dealers way out of state. if I was retired and had the time I'd travel there 1200 miles to FR factory for any repairs. I wished I could have went to this last rally in Indiana but couldn't.

I know exactly how you feel OP and wish you the best I hope factory reps look at it and fix it properly. Our rig wasn't a low end unit either and we did expect better.

[OldCoot]

At Lockheed where I worked, every job had written work instructions of which probably 90% were written by the employees. The thought is that the employee knows better than anyone how to do his job. Managements job is to allow them to do it and furnish the tools to accomplish it in a timely manner.

[grumpy0374]

Originally Posted by gasman94

Who's products would you buy that would be any better?

Rich

All it would take is one manufacturer of rv's, not the high end rigs, but the rv's for us everyday people, to turn out a reasonably priced, quality built rig. One that was built to a quality standard, and not to fill a quota for the day. One where the workers who were building it were told to take a bit of extra time and effort to do it right.
That manufacturer would set a standard that sooner or later the others would have to meet.
For something like that to happen would require a screeching halt of all sales of new units by prospective buyers.
But as we all know, buyers of new rigs are always wearing the "blinders" and only see the "new glitz n glamor" of that new rv their looking at.
Grumpy

[phillyg]

Originally Posted by Myrle

.........This new generation (not all) their work ethics and pride in workmanship isn't there....... .

Poor workmanship and lack of effective quality has always been missing in the RV industry.

[Dennise]

I you want another example of shoddy unprofessional workmanship, have a look under your coach or trailer frame sometime.

There you will see a 'rat's-nest' of undressed poorly secured and exposed wiring hanging down and loose from your frame here and there. If you drive in any area with marginal ground clearance, some of that wiring will surely get ripped out by catching on rocks or other ground objects. Should one suffer from a 'tire bomb', those tire fragments will rip out some of that loose wiring as actually did happen to a friend. Really now, how much more cost would be incurred by the addition of a couple dozen 'tie-wraps to secure the wiring'?

Detroit suffered from poor automotive quality in the 70's while the Japanese steadily hammered Detroit with superior quality automotive vehicles. If RV manufacturers here continue producing poor quality products, might they experience the same competition from another country or someone more attuned to quality? It's not ALWAYS about $$$$$.

[IronCobra]

Originally Posted by I-RV

X3 to the last three posts. However besides the screws why the lack of design? There is a lot of force on the pulleys when operating. Since the pulley is raised on the plate, the force causes the plate to be like a pry bar; one side of the plate is held to the wood, while the other side is being pried up. Beside using proper screws, there need to be solid wood (not particle board) or metal that the pulleys attaches to.

That's the best question. Perhaps someone was supposed to use Wood screws and grabbed the wrong box or decided he didn't wasn't to switch tools. Self tapping screws are actually more expensive so cost really should be the factor.

[tnbendr]

Originally Posted by fander

In my line of work I have had exposure to a few thousand employees over the years and have run into very few that don't want to do a good job. Employees are typically a lot smarter than their bosses give them credit for. If you tell an employee to go punch the time clock, work hard for eight hours, don't say anything, and then go home you aren't going to end up with a quality product. If you ask that same employee to look for ways to make the product better and faster and listen to what they say you have a lot better chance at quality.

That's very true, when you empower the employees and make them part of the solution, instead of treating them robots, you will get more from them. It's called ownership!

[grumpy0374]

The "ownership" is just the beginning of the problem, and from there it filters down. These things are made here in the USA for cryin out loud. We're supposed to be the best. And in some things we are, but it usually is forced upon us to make a better product to compete with a like product made overseas.
Auto industry is the perfect example. Cr-p turned out until the 70's when the imports came into their own, with better quality and workmenship. And they improved every year, until the US makers had to change. Granted, it took em awhile, but they did change and now turn out a fairly decant product.
Unfortunately, there is no competition for US made rv's, no matter the cost, inexpensive trailer or a 200 grand Berk.
As long as there is no outside influence on FR or others, there is no incentive for them to improve.
As long as their not held accountable for the poop that comes off the assembly line, the "ownership" will not change.
Like everything else that is forced upon a big company, it's going to take a high profile case where something unfortunate happens to a lot of people as a result of lack of quality control and shoddy workmenship being the cause.
I'll step off my soapbox now.
Grumpy

[lgray]

Originally Posted by gasman94

Who's products would you buy that would be any better?

Rich

Winnebago. I have owned three Forest River products, still have one and a 2014 Winnebago Aspect 30J. The Winnebago has never been back to the shop. Huge difference in quality and not that much more money...especially when you consider down time, added expense for repairs, length of service and how well they hold their value.

[Campin Cajun]

I'll turn the page a little. I have had very few problems with my Berkshire. Yes I did have a few on the shake down, but for the most part I have been lucky.

Knock on wood.

[grumpy0374]

That's just it, you shouldn't have to rely on "luck" or "knock on wood".
Explain how the same workers who build the same units day after day, turn out a rig that is almost trouble free, while the next one comes off the line a rolling lemon? How can slides be installed correctly in one product line while on another it dosen't work right from the start.
Worse yet, why was it not caught by the supposed "quality control" personal?
It's basically a crap shoot as to whether or not the rig you get is a good one or not.
There is another thread in the trailer section about a 6 month old trailer loosing the side panels while running down the road. Both sides, different times.
This is a quality made in the USA product?
This is a fault of the "ownership" not caring about anything but the profit's. If they did care, it would filter down to the workers.
If I as a worker, know that these things get shipped out no matter what short cuts were taken, and I know that mgt. dosen't care, why should I?
Grumpy

[Campin Cajun]

What's the employee turn over rate at FR?

How long does a certain employee stay at the same position in the line?

Does the same employee do the same rigging each and every day?

How much do these employees get paid?

Can they make more at a McDonald's that pays $15 an hour?

Are these summer jobs for some of them?


These are the questions that need answers. Then we can judge the quality of workers. I'll take luck any day.

[madmaxmutt]

Originally Posted by Campin Cajun

What's the employee turn over rate at FR?

How long does a certain employee stay at the same position in the line?

Does the same employee do the same rigging each and every day?

How much do these employees get paid?

Can they make more at a McDonald's that pays $15 an hour?

Are these summer jobs for some of them?


These are the questions that need answers. Then we can judge the quality of workers. I'll take luck any day.

I think you forgot the most important question. Was the work done early on Monday or late on Friday?

[wm1964]

tnbendr I feel your pain! I wont go into my long tale now, but I do see in your signature you have a 2015. That plays in your favor for now. We own a 2012, and recently when I called FR for a service appointment after numerous rounds of phone tag it took Mike 9 days to tell me that FR is no longer working on units unless it is under warranty. He further stated that he could refer me to other shops in the area, but they could only work on warranty issues at this time. Imagine my surprise when he basically told me that FR is turning out too many products with too many issues, go figure!

[tnbendr]

Originally Posted by wm1964

tnbendr I feel your pain! I wont go into my long tale now, but I do see in your signature you have a 2015. That plays in your favor for now. We own a 2012, and recently when I called FR for a service appointment after numerous rounds of phone tag it took Mike 9 days to tell me that FR is no longer working on units unless it is under warranty. He further stated that he could refer me to other shops in the area, but they could only work on warranty issues at this time. Imagine my surprise when he basically told me that FR is turning out too many products with too many issues, go figure!

Thanks wm1964...I'm really sorry to hear that because of too many problems they have to turn you away. I just commented on another post in this forum about how Randy's team does a wonderful job of cleaning up after the sloppy production work, but now they find themselves unable to keep up with the amount of issues? That's becoming pitiful! Maybe Warren Buffet ought to really look at what he bought into...but then I guess the profit is there.

[Wolverine 1945]

Do not forget,,, the faster they can get this Cr@p off the end of the line,,,
The more money they make !!!

[RSchleder]

Originally Posted by fander

When I bought my new trailer a couple years ago I was amazed by all the things wrong with it. Some were design errors and some were just sloppy workmanship. I asked my dealer if high end trailers were any better and he said no.

The quality of the trailer reminds me of my local Ford dealer in the early 70's. When he got new cars in the first thing he did was adjust the timing and the carburetor so they would run decent. Then they went to the body shop to get the doors, hood, and trunk aligned.

I retired over a decade ago as a manufacturing efficiency expert and this problem is usually caused by top management striving for cost reduction and higher production rates which can drastically reduce quality. Management does not realize it is a whole lot cheaper to build the product right the first time. Think of the advantage the sales department could have with a truly well built product.

Maybe someday top management will read some books by Dr Deming or others and learn why so many trailers have so many problems.

WOW, finally someone one here that understands manufacturing and QC!!. As a 38 year career Manufacturing and Quality Control manager, I couldn't agree MORE. I really get tired of the casual comments on this, as well as other forums, that "quality costs money". When in the real world of the informed, Quality SAVES money eliminating/reducing line stoppages, reworks, scrap, excessive warranty costs, and loss of customer base. All I can say is your RIGHT ON and welcome, brother, it's great to have you here!