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Old 03-29-2017, 10:01 AM   #1
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Hughes Autoform vs. PI EMS-PT30C

Currently, I have a EMS-PT30C...a fine unit that has done it's job perfectly in low voltage situations. I have been thinking about purchasing a Hughes RV2130 just for those times when the voltage would dip below 103V and the PI would shutdown.

I searched this Appliances and Electronics forum for Hughes and read through http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ne-103252.html which was very informative though I didn't find opinions on the possibility or lack of necessity of using both concurrently.

If I bought a Hughes I could:
1. Use both units by plugging the Hughes into the pedestal and plugging the PI into the Hughes.
2. Sell the PI and only use the Hughes
3. Keep both and only use the PI to check pedestals before connecting the Hughes.

I'm leaning towards options 1 and 2 with the idea that reselling the PI would help defray the cost of the Hughes should opinions re: option 1 not be favorable.

So what do you think? Is there another reason for keeping the PI if I go with option 2 that I haven't considered? Does anyone currently use both together, either the PI hardwired or portable? If using both, any anomalies seen? Of course it all comes down to risk vs. reward vs. cost in the end.

Thanks in advance for all players!
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:16 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by windsurfdog View Post
Currently, I have a EMS-PT30C...a fine unit that has done it's job perfectly in low voltage situations. I have been thinking about purchasing a Hughes RV2130 just for those times when the voltage would dip below 103V and the PI would shutdown.

I searched this Appliances and Electronics forum for Hughes and read through http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ne-103252.html which was very informative though I didn't find opinions on the possibility or lack of necessity of using both concurrently.

If I bought a Hughes I could:
1. Use both units by plugging the Hughes into the pedestal and plugging the PI into the Hughes.
2. Sell the PI and only use the Hughes
3. Keep both and only use the PI to check pedestals before connecting the Hughes.

I'm leaning towards options 1 and 2 with the idea that reselling the PI would help defray the cost of the Hughes should opinions re: option 1 not be favorable.

So what do you think? Is there another reason for keeping the PI if I go with option 2 that I haven't considered? Does anyone currently use both together, either the PI hardwired or portable? If using both, any anomalies seen? Of course it all comes down to risk vs. reward vs. cost in the end.

Thanks in advance for all players!

The Autoformer, even if its the newest model with the added surge protection, does not protect against nor warn of lots of conditions the PI unit will. You want both. What if you get a high voltage condition? The Hughes simply go's into standby. So if your getting 145 volts from the pedestal thats whats going to your electronics. The PI unit will shut you down at 132 volts. I have seen a lot of high voltage conditions at campgrounds.
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:19 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp View Post
The Autoformer, even if its the newest model with the added surge protection, does not protect against nor warn of lots of conditions the PI unit will.
I'm with Mr. Havercamp.

We have both as well and would not be without either.
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:32 AM   #4
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My eyes glassed over, but this is interesting reading on this subject:

Autoformer Usage
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:39 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BandJCarm View Post
My eyes glassed over, but this is interesting reading on this subject:

Autoformer Usage
WOOF! - My eyes glassed over after his first comment about boost transformers (and lumping the Hughes Autoformer in with all Buck-Boosts).

The Hughes does no such thing! The Autoformer DOES NOT take power from the park. It does not affect the park or input voltage, or make electricity.

What it is doing is changing the voltage - amperage relationship, lowering the amperage and raising the voltage. Since appliances run better on higher voltage, lower amp. It does this all post-pedestal.
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:26 AM   #6
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First, many thanks to respondents!

Mr. Havercamp, I hadn't considered overvoltage...and, as you suggest, it is QUITE worthy of consideration though not as great a risk as undervoltage. As long as both could be used concurrently, I would think the overvoltage protection would be the deciding factor for opting for option 1.

Also, would the consensus be that the PI unit would handle surges and protect electronics better than the Hughes unit? Is there any downside to redundant surge protection?

And BamaBob/BandJCarm, my one good eye was glazed as well at the referenced webpage. Sounds like he's run into some obnoxious Hughes users or possibly that's just his impression. I certainly don't buy into the idea that using a Hughes unit is putting others at risk by somehow over-utilizing available power.

So far, I'm leaning to option 1.
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Old 03-29-2017, 12:06 PM   #7
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From my work with computers, there are lots of sources that all say "do not daisy chain surge suppressors". What I recall, is that MOVs (the commonly used thingy that does the suppression) dump the excess current from the hot lead to the common lead when a surge occurs. Somehow this dump will affect other MOVs mounted serially on the same circuit. Since you will be connecting the Autoformer to the PMS, it seems like they will impact each other, possibly causing damage to what you are trying to protect.
I've been thinking about whether I should add an Autoformer to my setup. If I do, I will try to get the Autoformer without the surge suppression.
Hoping an electronics expert chimes in with a definitive statement on this issue. Maybe we can get a statement from Hughes or Progressive.
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Old 03-29-2017, 12:40 PM   #8
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I use both, PL first at the pedestal, then the autoformer, never a problem.
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Old 03-29-2017, 12:49 PM   #9
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Hughes Autoform vs. PI EMS-PT30C

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailorSam20500 View Post
From my work with computers, there are lots of sources that all say "do not daisy chain surge suppressors". What I recall, is that MOVs (the commonly used thingy that does the suppression) dump the excess current from the hot lead to the common lead when a surge occurs. Somehow this dump will affect other MOVs mounted serially on the same circuit. Since you will be connecting the Autoformer to the PMS, it seems like they will impact each other, possibly causing damage to what you are trying to protect.
I've been thinking about whether I should add an Autoformer to my setup. If I do, I will try to get the Autoformer without the surge suppression.
Hoping an electronics expert chimes in with a definitive statement on this issue. Maybe we can get a statement from Hughes or Progressive.


I recently read about this very concern, so I emailed both PI and Hughes (since I had no idea). Hughes replied back saying it was a non-issue. (He also explained MOVs briefly.)

From what I can tell by researching the subject, most/all contexts of "don't daisy-chain surge protectors" are about power-strips. I think power-strips tend to be referred to as surge protectors in many discussions. Since power-strips can only support a limited amount of current, there are valid reasons to not daisy-chain them.

I have a "whole house" surge suppressor in each of my home's main panels. I also use power-strip/surge protectors... so those are daisy-chained. No problems there. No instructions state to not do that.

I use multiple surge suppressors/guards/protectors in my camper setup. Never had an issue.
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Old 03-29-2017, 12:51 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Roger2650 View Post
I use both, PL first at the pedestal, then the autoformer, never a problem.


What is your "PL"?

The reason I ask is... if it is an EMS, the Autoformer has to go before it. If the EMS is first, it will cut power during a low-voltage event never allowing the Autoformer to do its job.
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Old 03-29-2017, 12:57 PM   #11
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For more info, here is another recent thread on this topic.

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...on-129422.html
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Old 03-29-2017, 01:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SailorSam20500 View Post
From my work with computers, there are lots of sources that all say "do not daisy chain surge suppressors". What I recall, is that MOVs (the commonly used thingy that does the suppression) dump the excess current from the hot lead to the common lead when a surge occurs.
Ah, you are in the market for Surge Suppressor 101

First things first. Before we can understand a surge or a spike (more on these terms later) we need to understand what voltage is.

Here is an easy way to understand voltage: it is a measure of the difference in electric potential. Current travels from point A to B because there is greater electrical potential at one end of the wire than there is at the other. -- This is fancy-schmancy electronics talk and is confusing to a lot of folks

Try this: Consider your fresh water hose: water flows from point A to point B because of water pressure: the pressure is higher at the water spigot (pedestal) than it is at the Water connection at your RV (receptacle). So an easy way to remember voltage is that it is a measure of electrical pressure.

An electrical surge, (technically, called transient voltage), is an increase in voltage significantly higher than the 120V typically found in AC receptacles. When the voltage rises above 120 volts, you have problems and a surge protector prevents this problem from frying your electronics. Enter Mr. Surge Suppresser. When voltage rises above the level set in the surge suppressor (typically 119 or 120V), the surge suppressor has circuitry that quickly re-routes the extra electricity into the outlet's grounding wire. (More about 'quickly' in a sec...)

Surge or Spike, what's the difference? Remember the fresh water hose analogy? You can think of these 2 terms as differences in pressure over time. If high 'pressure' electricity (over 120V) lasts for
3 nanoseconds or more, it's called a surge. If it lasts for less than 3 nanoseconds, it's called a spike. Regardless if it is a surge or a spike, either electrical event can cause serious (and expensive!) damage to your RV electronics.

Remember 'Quickly?' well the only reason I bothered hurting your head with these terms is this: since a spike can fry your electronics at 1 nanosecond, make sure that your surge suppressor has a listed response time of under 1 second.
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Old 03-29-2017, 01:19 PM   #13
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Hughes Autoform vs. PI EMS-PT30C

Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaBob View Post
Ah, you are in the market for Surge Suppressor 101

First things first. Before we can understand a surge or a spike (more on these terms later) we need to understand what voltage is.

Here is an easy way to understand voltage: it is a measure of the difference in electric potential. Current travels from point A to B because there is greater electrical potential at one end of the wire than there is at the other. -- This is fancy-schmancy electronics talk and is confusing to a lot of folks

Try this: Consider your fresh water hose: water flows from point A to point B because of water pressure: the pressure is higher at the water spigot (pedestal) than it is at the Water connection at your RV (receptacle). So an easy way to remember voltage is that it is a measure of electrical pressure.

An electrical surge, (technically, called transient voltage), is an increase in voltage significantly higher than the 120V typically found in AC receptacles. When the voltage rises above 120 volts, you have problems and a surge protector prevents this problem from frying your electronics. Enter Mr. Surge Suppresser. When voltage rises above the level set in the surge suppressor (typically 119 or 120V), the surge suppressor has circuitry that quickly re-routes the extra electricity into the outlet's grounding wire. (More about 'quickly' in a sec...)

Surge or Spike, what's the difference? Remember the fresh water hose analogy? You can think of these 2 terms as differences in pressure over time. If high 'pressure' electricity (over 120V) lasts for
3 nanoseconds or more, it's called a surge. If it lasts for less than 3 nanoseconds, it's called a spike. Regardless if it is a surge or a spike, either electrical event can cause serious (and expensive!) damage to your RV electronics.

Remember 'Quickly?' well the only reason I bothered hurting your head with these terms is this: since a spike can fry your electronics at 1 nanosecond, make sure that your surge suppressor has a listed response time of under 1 second.


Nope, wasn't in the market. Simply saying an engineer from Hughes said that having more than one surge suppressor in-line was not a problem. The context being an EMS (with surge protection) and an Autoformer (with surge protection) plugged into each other.

Sorry... thought you were responding to me. I'm seeing responses faster than I can type! [emoji846]
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Old 03-29-2017, 01:40 PM   #14
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itat, thank you very much for pointing me to that thread. I see it is recent so I'm a bit embarrassed that I didn't search correctly to find it. i think after reading it, I'm convinced to utilize both so option 1 it is.

BamaBob, that thorough explanation was extremely helpful. Plus your posts in the other thread were quite convincing. Thanks for the facts and opinions.

325BH, I agree with your assessment of Roger2650's setup. Since it didn't make sense to me to have the PI shutdown power to the Hughes in undervoltage conditions (not allowing the Hughes to do the work for which it was purchased), I didn't include that scenario in my op options.

So once I purchase a Hughes, I'll use both.

Now all I have to do is devise a way to keep both units off the ground at the pedestal. I'm thinking of using a piece of line or webbing to hang the Hughes from the top of the pedestal leaving enough space below to hang the PI without touching the ground. Anyone have a good solution/suggestion?
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Old 03-29-2017, 02:13 PM   #15
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Hughes Autoform vs. PI EMS-PT30C

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itat, thank you very much for pointing me to that thread. I see it is recent so I'm a bit embarrassed that I didn't search correctly to find it. i think after reading it, I'm convinced to utilize both so option 1 it is.



BamaBob, that thorough explanation was extremely helpful. Plus your posts in the other thread were quite convincing. Thanks for the facts and opinions.



325BH, I agree with your assessment of Roger2650's setup. Since it didn't make sense to me to have the PI shutdown power to the Hughes in undervoltage conditions (not allowing the Hughes to do the work for which it was purchased), I didn't include that scenario in my op options.



So once I purchase a Hughes, I'll use both.



Now all I have to do is devise a way to keep both units off the ground at the pedestal. I'm thinking of using a piece of line or webbing to hang the Hughes from the top of the pedestal leaving enough space below to hang the PI without touching the ground. Anyone have a good solution/suggestion?


Although it is an added expense (due to extra power cord), I locate my Autoformer under my camper. So... I have: pedestal => SSP-50XL => cord => Autoformer => cord => camper inlet => EMS-HW50C => breaker box.

(Not sure if 30 amp rigs all have pull-out cords or if some of them use an inlet similar to 50 amp rigs... but on 50 amp rigs, we have an inlet where a cord plugs into. Just thought I would explain in case that step above confused.)

Essentially I use two cords so my Autoformer can sit under my camper instead of plugging it into the pedestal. This keeps it out of the weather and stays locked to my camper. I did the same thing with my "pedestal " EMS (kept it under the camper) before I got a hard wired EMS.
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Old 03-29-2017, 02:50 PM   #16
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Don't mean to throw water on the campfire but I read a couple years ago that the auto transformer is forbidden in a fixed position or hard wired situation. Reason given is due to the nature of the beast they can self ignite and cause lots of damage. The rule comes from the NEC (National Electric Code) part of NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency).
Penalty is simple -you have no fire insurance. Buyer beware. NEC applies nearly nationwide.
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Old 03-29-2017, 02:56 PM   #17
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Don't mean to throw water on the campfire but I read a couple years ago that the auto transformer is forbidden in a fixed position or hard wired situation. Reason given is due to the nature of the beast they can self ignite and cause lots of damage. The rule comes from the NEC (National Electric Code) part of NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency).
Penalty is simple -you have no fire insurance. Buyer beware. NEC applies nearly nationwide.


Without commenting on the validity of whether or not one should hard-wire the Autoformer, the "penalty " is false. You can't make blanket statements like that and expect to be taken seriously.
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Old 03-29-2017, 03:17 PM   #18
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ACK! Correction!

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Originally Posted by 325BH View Post
Nope, wasn't in the market. Simply saying an engineer from Hughes said that having more than one surge suppressor in-line was not a problem. The context being an EMS (with surge protection) and an Autoformer (with surge protection) plugged into each other.

Sorry... thought you were responding to me. I'm seeing responses faster than I can type! [emoji846]
Nah I was just posting general useless information that floats around in my head

I DO need to make a correction though!

I said: Remember 'Quickly?' well the only reason I bothered hurting your head with these terms is this: since a spike can fry your electronics at 1 nanosecond, make sure that your surge suppressor has a listed response time of under 1 second

That should be 1 NANOsecond!
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Old 03-29-2017, 03:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceU View Post
Don't mean to throw water on the campfire but I read a couple years ago that the auto transformer is forbidden in a fixed position or hard wired situation. Reason given is due to the nature of the beast they can self ignite and cause lots of damage. The rule comes from the NEC (National Electric Code) part of NFPA (National Fire Protection Agency).
Penalty is simple -you have no fire insurance. Buyer beware. NEC applies nearly nationwide.
Sorta...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 325BH View Post
Without commenting on the validity of whether or not one should hard-wire the Autoformer, the "penalty " is false. You can't make blanket statements like that and expect to be taken seriously.
I agree.

And the word from Hughes is "Install in a well ventilated area" - I called them and the 24"x20"x4' basement area I have it installed in is fine.

Crammed into a tight fitting area like you would find in a TT? Probably not.
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Old 03-29-2017, 03:24 PM   #20
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Now all I have to do is devise a way to keep both units off the ground at the pedestal. I'm thinking of using a piece of line or webbing to hang the Hughes from the top of the pedestal leaving enough space below to hang the PI without touching the ground. Anyone have a good solution/suggestion?
Sure.

Fabricate a frame out of, say 3/4" Schedule 40 PVC pipe. Your imagination is the limit on how you can hang the two devices on the frame

PVC pipe and fitting are a RV'ers best friend - you can make anything out of it! I have made a flag holder, camp sign holder, and water filter/softener frame to name a few.
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