21RR Tow with 2013 Toyota Tacoma 4x4 with Tow and More...

[asquared]

you are way out matched by this trailer. the dry tongue weight is 200 lbs over your available payload. If you go with your estimated loaded weight of 5800 lbs then you are looking at around 750 lbs of tongue weight which puts you 400 lbs over on payload. unfortunately each of those things you added to your taco added weight to the truck and decreased your payload. As stated above you will probably be over on RAWR and while some around here will go over on gvwr and payload they still abide by rawr. Another thing to look at will be your tire load capacity. Remember that if you try to correct the payload by shifting weight to the rear of your TH, you can and will create a very bad and dangerous sway condition that even a Hensley arrow won't be able to overcome.

now lets talk about that 4 cylinder engine. it is not gonna do well in hills/mountains of nc, va etc. You are not only going to struggle getting up them, you are going to struggle to maintain control coming down them. How do I know? I have been there in an outmatched TV that had a stated towing capacity way higher than it could handle. I was over on payload by about 200 lbs loaded and under overall stated tow capacity by about 2100 lbs. I had a v8 towing loaded 7000 lbs (dry 5700 lbs) TV rated for 9100 lbs. I was less outmatched than you and I could barely keep the rig on the road with a Reese dual cam and 20 yrs experience towing horses. The TV could barely make it up the 7% grades I encountered in VA and NC. Even worse was the downhill trek. When a trailer pushes you down a mountain you swear never to be in that situation again. you have half the engine, a lighter TV, and a TT that will be very heavy, heavy enough to give pause to some of the 1/2 ton truck lineup.

As for the dealership saying it will be fine, the salesman know nothing about truck specs. They would sell you a 13000 lb fifth wheel to be towed by a smart car if they could talk you into it. They have tried to talk me and many others of this forum into loads that were unsafe. in some cases they have succeeded, in others they have not. Either way, I think you are about to realize you made a very expensive and unsafe mistake by doing what you want and not listening to wisdom and reason. What will the wife say to that? My DH would not hear the end of it. Probably because he laid into me pretty hard for trying to spend thousands fixing a lost cause in my old TV only to trade it for the new TV.

[OmegaQuest]

Its a V6, not 4 Cyl.

The dealer said (and I have heard from others, but they could be wrong to) that the tounge weight of 10-11% (650-715lbs) (in the Tacoma Manual in my truck) is without a WD hitch. By adding the WD Hitch it should almost double that so the 750lbs tounge weight should not be an issue right? Is this not true?

[asquared]

sorry, thought i read 4cyl but still pretty much holds true for 6 cyl engine also. wrong about the TW. you should be between 13-15% of loaded trailer weight for correct tongue weight. At best a properly adjusted wdh will transfer 20% of the weight back to the trailer. figuring 750 lbs (13% of your guessed 5800 lbs) that would still be 600 lbs on the truck and 300 lbs over payload. Remember that the dry weights do not include propane, battery and dealer installed options so you will quite likely be heavier than 5800 lbs. Toy haulers tend to be heavy beasts.


the taco manual is generalized for all trailers . but the th, TT etc have to run a higher tongue wight than other kinds of trailers for stability.

[OmegaQuest]

This is where I am getting confused here.

Dosent the TW the manual talks about mean the Tacoma should not have more then the 650-715 lbs (without WD Hitch) on it? Well wouldnt the 600 lbs you mentioned above be lower then the 650-715 (without WD Hitch) so Im not sure where this 300 lbs is coming from?

Sorry for not understanding but I am trying here.

[OmegaQuest]

Manual: GAWR Axle Rear: 3,110 lbs.
Scales Today: Rear Axle (wet): 2,320 lbs.

3110 – 2320 = 790 lbs.

The specs on the Toy Hauler Sticker say:
Dry Hitch Weight 574 lbs.
Unloaded Vehicle Weight 4,142 lbs.

So they are calculating the Tongue Weight (Hitch Weight) at 14% so we will according to that sticker so we will use that.

5,800 weight for the Toy Hauler Wet (let’s say the prop tank is empty and no battery because I don’t have those real numbers yet)
5,800 @ 14% = 812 lbs. Tongue Weight from the Toy Hauler fully loaded

So now lets do the final math:
790 lbs. (Rear Axle still available) – 812 lbs. (TW from Toy Hauler loaded) = -22 lbs.

So I am about 22 lbs. over for the rear Axle Weight. But by removing the spare tire from the truck under the truck bed behind the rear axle and moving it to the rear of the hauler or leaving it behind at the house should cover this -22lbs because the tire is more then 22 lbs.

Am I not understanding or missing something still?

[asquared]

ok let me explain the weights to you. The scaled weight of the taco is what everything will be based on not the factory weight that the book numbers come from. The manual numbers are for best case scenario, in stripped model with 150 lb driver only. Anything above that gets added into the payload which is why we had you weigh your taco loaded for a trip. Now take the scaled weight of the taco and subtract it from the gcwr to get your adjusted towing capacity. Next take your scaled weight and subtract it from the taco gvwr to get available payload (this is what you have not used up yet with passengers and gear, etc). The tongue weight is weight added to the truck and must be accounted for in the gvwr of the truck (in other words subtracted from your payload). What the truck was originally rated for becomes null and void as objects and people are added to a vehicle. The max RAWR is the most weight you can put on your rear axle. When you hook to your trailer it adds weight to your axles. The wdh shifts some of that weight forward (ideally to have the front axle weigh as close to no trailer weight as possibe without being heavier). Even with shifting that yet to be determined weight you are still loading your rear axle and putting weight on both axles still adds weight to total truck weight or gvwr. In addition to these numbers you have hitch ratings for load bearing (no wdh) and weight distributing. Different class hitches are rated for different weights. most likely you have a class 3 or 4 hitch. The weight ratings will be stamped on it. The reason why you lack the ability to carry as much tongue weight as that states is because that rating is for that piece of equipment and not the truck. in other words your hitch is rated for the same weight whether its strapped to a vw bug or a 1 ton dually. The limiting factor will always be whatever your weakest component is (whether its tires, brakes, frame etc we don't know but manufacturer has the items rated for your trucks gvwr and rawr). ok, is it as clear as mud yet?

[asquared]

Originally Posted by OmegaQuest

Manual: GAWR Axle Rear: 3,110 lbs.
Scales Today: Rear Axle (wet): 2,320 lbs.

3110 – 2320 = 790 lbs.

The specs on the Toy Hauler Sticker say:
Dry Hitch Weight 574 lbs.
Unloaded Vehicle Weight 4,142 lbs.

So they are calculating the Tongue Weight (Hitch Weight) at 14% so we will according to that sticker so we will use that.

5,800 weight for the Toy Hauler Wet (let’s say the prop tank is empty and no battery because I don’t have those real numbers yet)
5,800 @ 14% = 812 lbs. Tongue Weight from the Toy Hauler fully loaded

So now lets do the final math:
790 lbs. (Rear Axle still available) – 812 lbs. (TW from Toy Hauler loaded) = -22 lbs.

So I am about 22 lbs. over for the rear Axle Weight. But by removing the spare tire from the truck under the truck bed behind the rear axle and moving it to the rear of the hauler or leaving it behind at the house should cover this -22lbs because the tire is more then 22 lbs.

Am I not understanding or missing something still?

you are getting there

Now with the wdh some of that weight will be transferred to your front axle. the only true way to know the rawr numbers with th will be to hook it up loaded and weigh it.

Also look at your payload. So taco gvwr 5500 lbs - scaled weight 5120 lbs = 380 lbs available payload.

gcwr 11,170- scaled weight 5120=6050 lbs left for adjusted towing capacity.

now one thing not accounted for in all of this, how much does that Spyder weigh? Typically people add 1000-1500 lbs to a trailer above optioned weight, in toy hauler you need to add the toys weight in also.

[asquared]

ok went bak and found your 1200 lbs or toys so really you are looking at adding realistically 2200 lbs to the 4100 + dry weight. So really we are talking 6300 lbs not 5800 lbs


so 14% of 6300 lbs is 882 lbs. Take 80% of 882 lbs is 705 lbs on truck (other 20% to th remember) plus approx 100 lbs for all the wdh parts puts you back to 805 lbs.

I'll let you try to redo the math from here. Ive been up since 6 am and have to be up in the morning for my dd 6th birthday.

[OmegaQuest]

Originally Posted by anaro

you are getting there

Now with the wdh some of that weight will be transferred to your front axle. the only true way to know the rawr numbers with th will be to hook it up loaded and weigh it.

Also look at your payload. So taco gvwr 5500 lbs - scaled weight 5120 lbs = 380 lbs available payload.

gcwr 11,170- scaled weight 5120=6050 lbs left for adjusted towing capacity.

now one thing not accounted for in all of this, how much does that Spyder weigh? Typically people add 1000-1500 lbs to a trailer above optioned weight, in toy hauler you need to add the toys weight in also.

The 5,800 lbs number is with the Spyder and R1:

Spyder = 699 lbs. (with full tank)
R1 = 450 lbs. (with full tank)

So I calculated 1,200 lbs for the Spyder and R1 (with a little extra in that number just incase)

---------
On a side note, what if I remove the tail gate from the truck when hauling.... LOL

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by OmegaQuest

• Leave the Spare Tire from the trailer behind (since it has 2 axles)
• Leave the Spare Tire (Full Size) from the truck (the tire is located under the truck behind the rear axle)
  

Neither is a good idea. A flat is a flat, whether on a 2 axle trailer, or a 1 or 3 axle trailer. You don't drive with a flat.......it will ruin the wheel, and beat the side of the trailer and the wheel-well, even possibly doing damage to the inside of the trailer when the wheel-well disappears.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by mtnguy

Neither is a good idea. A flat is a flat, whether on a 2 axle trailer, or a 1 or 3 axle trailer. You don't drive with a flat.......it will ruin the wheel, and beat the side of the trailer and the wheel-well, even possibly doing damage to the inside of the trailer when the wheel-well disappears.

And, even with emergency roadside service- Murphy will have his way and it'll be on a highway that you won't want to sit on for an hour while you wait. Or in the mountains 3 hours from the nearest service. That Murphy is a bugger!

Besides, with being so far over GVWR- I don't think the weight of the spare makes a huge difference. Especially the one on the camper as only a portion of its weight translates to tongue weight.

[OmegaQuest]

Question;

Would putting my R1 Sportbike in the back of the truck and only putting the Can-Am Spyder in the Toy Haulder help me tow/control this 19RR hauler better or would it be best to keep both of them in the Hauler and keep the truck bed empty?

[ependydad]

Both in the hauler and keep the bed empty.

When they're in the hauler, only a portion of their weight will be transferred to the truck as tongue weight because the camper axles will carry most of it). When they're in the bed, the truck is carrying their entire weight.

[OmegaQuest]

Thanks. So should I also put all the camping gear, cloths, cooler, food in the back of the hauler as well?

Also when I pick up the 19RR (Week or 2) I will get a "real" dry weight at the CAT Scale, and one with it loaded (minus the water) and then another with it hooked to the truck to get an overall weight so to see.

[ependydad]

In the camper, yes. In the *back* of the camper- not necessarily. You're going to need to be aware of your tongue weight - too light and you can induce sway; too heavy and it can put you over your rear axle weights. Generally speaking, with travel trailers, you want approximately 10-15% of the trailer's weight as tongue weight.

When you weigh, *each*-time, you want to do 3-weightings:
1) trailer and truck with WDH engaged
2) trailer and truck without spring bars for WDH (throw the bars in the bed of the truck)
3) take the camper and park it, put the bars into the camper and go weigh the truck by itself

(I wrote an article on How to Weigh a Travel Trailer that explains in a little more detail about these 3 weightings.)

You want to make sure nothing changes between each weighing, otherwise it can skew your math. People in the same seats, load in the same places, etc.

With CAT scales, you pay $10 for the first weighing and then $1-2 for each subsequent weigh within 24 hours.

You'll need a few weightings to get your WDH dialed in. The dealer isn't going to do it right, sadly. They just don't know enough about your loads, where it's going, etc to do it properly. So plan on learning its instruction manual and redoing that.

You will see how moving things or adding/removing water makes a difference. Many people will even buy a Sureline scale so they can measure tongue weight at home (knowing their basic camper weight from prior weightings).

[OmegaQuest]

The dealer is installing the WDH as it is in the price I paid for it ($900 installed so it better be a good one, he did referance Equilizer). He says its a 4 spot built in sway so I dont know if I can "remove" the sway bars?

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by OmegaQuest

The dealer is installing the WDH as it is in the price I paid for it ($900 installed so it better be a good one, he did referance Equilizer). He says its a 4 spot built in sway so I dont know if I can "remove" the sway bars?

Hopefully someone smarter than me will be around - I've never actually had a WDH (went from a pop-up with a simple sway friction bar to a fifth wheel). But, it's my understanding that the WDH hitching process is something like:

1) Ball into coupler
2) Lower trailer until weight starts to load onto the ball
3) Engage weight distributing "bars"/"springs" to the "chains"/"links"/"washers" (or something)
4) Finish raising tongue so all of the weight is on the truck

Basically, between the 2 weightings - you want one where the WDH is "doing it's thing" and one where it's just the ball supporting the trailer. That will tell you how much weight the hitch is distributing and where (to the front tires, back to the camper tires, etc.).

---

As well, when I say that you need to learn about tweaking and fine-tuning the WDH, there are usually links or washers or something and the angle of the head that you adjust to manage where and how much weight gets pushed around. The amount that you need to push around will be dependent upon how much the trailer itself weighs and where the weight is located (empty garage vs. full garage vs. 1 toy vs. 2 toys; with water vs. without water, etc.). There's much more art than science in all of it.

Your dealer will get you started and hopefully teach you how to do it. But, they can't know how and where your weight will be in the camper without all of your stuff.

[asquared]

these links might help you...
how wdh works. and wdh set up procedure. These should help you get started.

I know the Reese dual cam can be hooked up without the bars and I believe the same is true for the equal-i-zer. What you do when hooking up is drop the hitch on the ball, close and lock the coupler and then use the tongue jack to lift the rear end of the truck up some (takes some pressure off the truck when hitching) then attach the bars from the hitch platform to the trailer. These systems act and attach slightly different with different models. The equal-i-zer utilizes washers and the bars clamp to the a frame. Whereas the Reese dual cam utilizes a cam system with chains. Both are very effective hitches with slightly different wdh/sway control mechanisms. Remember you don't want to drive more than a few feet without these bars on so have them handy.

[ependydad]

Omega, do let us know when you pickup the camper! And, pictures - we LOVE pictures.

[OmegaQuest]

I pick up the 19RR this Saturday and will go from there on photos, setting up the Prod P3 and WDH properly and then go to the CAT scale and all that to see what I have to work with.