3/4 ton vs 1 ton Feeling the difference real or imagined

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Retired JSO

Not entirely correct.
The release of the 2017 SuperDuty brought about some revisions to the axles in order to support the additional power and towing capacity compared to the previous 2011-2016 model year generation. Up front, its basically unchanged with the use of a 35 spline Super Dana 60. Out back, however, there are several variations depending on the capacity of the truck. For those with an F-250, there are two axles that could be residing under your bed. If your truck is equipped with the Heavy Duty Tow Package, you've got a Dana M275 featuring a 10.8" ring gear. For those F-250's without the HD Tow Package, you'll have the tried and true Sterling 10.5 that has been used for years, still featuring a 10.5" ring gear. Moving from there, the F-350 Single Rear Wheel (SRW) models are equipped with the same Dana M275 as the properly equipped 250's. Next, Dual Rear Wheel (DRW) F-350 and F-450's are bumped to a Dana M300 with a massive 11.8" ring gear. The 10.5" has 35 spline axles, where the M275 has 36 splines, and the M300 boasts 37 splines. From the factory, these housings were typically stuffed with the popular 3.31 ratio, but also had options for 3.55, 3.73, or 4.30 ratios.

Ah yes, that is true. I don’t keep up on Fords much. Also, good job with that copy and paste from https://www.dieselpowerproducts.com/...erentials.aspx [emoji41]

[Retired JSO]

I couldn’t remember the details so I had to fudge a bit since I own a 18 DRW F350.

[transmission_doctor]

My experience, I went from an older F150 with the 5.0 engine pulling the Flagstaff in my signature line to the Silveradao 2500HD in my signature line. The F150 was within ratings towing the Flagstaff, but there is a world of difference towing between the 2500HD and the F150.

The 2500 configuration with the tow/haul mode and the Allison makes a HUGE difference in pulling power and hold back power.

I have pulled my trailer up and over the Allegheny mountains with the 2500HD; easily maintained the sped limit going up and very little braking required going down the other side. A WORLD of difference between the F150 and the 2500HD. The F150 on the same route had to be run in 2nd gear all the way up the mountain and I had to ride the brakes all the way down the other side. A lot of the difference has to do with the drive train, the Duramax diesel with the Allison configuration in tow mode is light years better than the F150 engine tranny combo that I had at the time. (this was an older F150, the new ones may be all together different!)

FYI someone commented about a so called transmission retarder, well there is no such animal. Most transmissions because of fuel economy requirements, in there normal operational mode will free wheel (like neutral with a manual transmission). what the Allison controls do is change the clutch configuration so that when you are in tow mode the transmission no longer free wheels and engine braking is available.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by transmission_doctor

FYI someone commented about a so called transmission retarder, well there is no such animal. Most transmissions because of fuel economy requirements, in there normal operational mode will free wheel (like neutral with a manual transmission). what the Allison controls do is change the clutch configuration so that when you are in tow mode the transmission no longer free wheels and engine braking is available.

Sorry, that is incorrect. Automatics do not freewheel when you let off the gas and the Allison 1000 does in fact have an input retarder.

A little more than half way down this is mentioned as being part of the main case.

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1...-transmission/

Grade braking and exhaust brakes are tied into the automatics which keep the TCC locked in order to use engine resistance to slow the truck. Even without a Diesel engine or exhaust brake the trans won’t freewheel as that would be unsafe and put more wear on the service brakes. If the trans freewheeled then the engine would drop down to idle and downhill speed would require using the brakes to maintain any control of speed. Clearly this does not happen with any automatic. The transmission stays engaged, fuel is cut off to the engine, and resistance from the engine helps to maintain speed or help slow the vehicle down.

The input retarder provides more resistance and even more braking ability than a transmission that doesn’t have a retarder.

Hope this helps.

[SlowrideHD]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

Hmmm, couple of things...


The brakes for the F250 and F350 are identical in terms of calipers, pads, and rotor size. The only difference between F-250 SRW and F-350 DRW is the wheel mount for the front wheels. If you had braking problems with the F-250 then it wasn't due to towing weight.


F-250 SRW PSD -> F-350 DRW PSD difference is 2 more tires and different springs. Same frame, same brakes, same axles, same powertrain. This is for the trucks made in the past ~10 years or so and comparing same year/generation trucks.


Anyway, glad you have a setup you're happy with. Just wanted to mention what seem to be some common misconceptions when it comes to brakes and braking.

The F250 I traded for the 2016 F350 was an '02 with a 7.3L. I drove it for nearly 15 years so I guess I knew how it acted under different conditions. Be aware of your own misconceptions sir.

[itat]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

...

F-250 SRW PSD -> F-350 DRW PSD difference is 2 more tires and different springs. Same frame, same brakes, same axles, same powertrain. This is for the trucks made in the past ~10 years or so and comparing same year/generation trucks.

In the 2016 model year Ford Super Duty, the rear axle on the F-250 and F-350 SRW are not the same, so there’s no way the axles on the F-250 and F-350 DRW are the same other than the extra wheels.

[CaptnJohn]

When I traded a 250 for a 350 for payload the box drop was the same. Nothing more than the payload # changed. But I was legal. That was pulling a 13,200 5er. Ordered a 350 dually as I'm now pulling nearly 18k. The only difference expected is the pia of the hips and lb. had a dually in the past and saw zero benefit other than being legal.

[itat]

Originally Posted by CaptnJohn

When I traded a 250 for a 350 for payload the box drop was the same. Nothing more than the payload # changed. But I was legal. That was pulling a 13,200 5er. Ordered a 350 dually as I'm now pulling nearly 18k. The only difference expected is the pia of the hips and lb. had a dually in the past and saw zero benefit other than being legal.

I can tell you that the people who maintain the roads appreciate that you’re splitting that load between 4 tires at the rear of your truck rather than just 2.

[moose074]

Originally Posted by transmission_doctor

My experience, I went from an older F150 with the 5.0 engine pulling the Flagstaff in my signature line to the Silveradao 2500HD in my signature line. The F150 was within ratings towing the Flagstaff, but there is a world of difference towing between the 2500HD and the F150.



The 2500 configuration with the tow/haul mode and the Allison makes a HUGE difference in pulling power and hold back power.



I have pulled my trailer up and over the Allegheny mountains with the 2500HD; easily maintained the sped limit going up and very little braking required going down the other side. A WORLD of difference between the F150 and the 2500HD. The F150 on the same route had to be run in 2nd gear all the way up the mountain and I had to ride the brakes all the way down the other side. A lot of the difference has to do with the drive train, the Duramax diesel with the Allison configuration in tow mode is light years better than the F150 engine tranny combo that I had at the time. (this was an older F150, the new ones may be all together different!)



FYI someone commented about a so called transmission retarder, well there is no such animal. Most transmissions because of fuel economy requirements, in there normal operational mode will free wheel (like neutral with a manual transmission). what the Allison controls do is change the clutch configuration so that when you are in tow mode the transmission no longer free wheels and engine braking is available.

Yes sir I would agree with your statement, even without knowing the gap in years between your 150 and your Chevy. You went from gas to diesel. Now if you had gone to a 3/4 ton Ford with a 5.4 not sure you would say the same.

[dalford]

I had an F250 diesel pulling my Cedar Creek 33IK. I was about 1K over payload capacity. I added air bags to compensate for the sag.

I have upgraded to an F350 diesel. I’m just at payload and did not have to add bags since the F350 has an added leaf spring for the increased payload.

My take on towing improvement is nada, if I had it all to do over again I would have kept the F250. I pulled the same 5ver with the F250 over 10K miles and now with the F350 over 7K Miles. For me, there is absolutely no difference in the towing experience between the F250 and the F350.

I guess there is peace of mind from the weight police stand point and the “being legal if in an accident” but no difference in performance.

Now this is Ford to Ford and swr to swr. Can’t speak to dually or another mfgr...

[moose074]

Originally Posted by dalford

I had an F250 diesel pulling my Cedar Creek 33IK. I was about 1K over payload capacity. I added air bags to compensate for the sag.



I have upgraded to an F350 diesel. I’m just at payload and did not have to add bags since the F350 has an added leaf spring for the increased payload.



My take on towing improvement is nada, if I had it all to do over again I would have kept the F250. I pulled the same 5ver with the F250 over 10K miles and now with the F350 over 7K Miles. For me, there is absolutely no difference in the towing experience between the F250 and the F350.



I guess there is peace of mind from the weight police stand point and the “being legal if in an accident” but no difference in performance.



Now this is Ford to Ford and swr to swr. Can’t speak to dually or another mfgr...

Yes sir this was basically my thought process. I had glanced at curb weights in the past and had noticed how close in weight (>100 Ib )3/4 tons and 1 ton equipped the same were.

However it seemed like ever payload thread there is always the mention in some manner that implies having a 1 ton greatly increased the truck to trailer weight ratio. Therefore implying that the truck is now in control versus the trailer. Do people really feel the extra sensation of being in control or is it just peace of mind.


One could apply going from 1/2 trucks to HD trucks as well as long as you compare apples to apples. If I remember correctly going from a 1500 Ram crewcab 5.7 to a 2500 crewcab 5.7 in 2012 when I bought my first tow vehicle. I found a char that put them less than 100 pounds apart in curb weight. That said salesman talked me into a base model Cummings that had been sitting on the lot for a awhile and had extra factory incentives.

[ronheater70]

went from a 2016 ram 2500 6.4 to a 2018 ram 3500 6.7 CTD... Same exact configuration in both trucks.. LB 4x4 CC. I feel the 3500 is more planted with the leaf spring suspension vs the coil spring on the 2500 when towing.. And with the Gain set the same on both trucks, the 3500 stops the trailer better, I'm not sure why (this does not include using the Exhaust brake on the diesel)

[moose074]

Because it is by going to Cummings you add basically 500 pounds in engine alone not to mention the heavier components to support it. Which is why apple to apple comparison. If you had went diesel to diesel do you think you would have noticed a big difference. Same power plant same body slightly heavier. I will say also losing coil springs could have made noticeable improvement

[mjones12]

No one has mentioned axles.

My 2010 Silverado 1500 is rated to tow 7600 pounds. But according to the chart in owners manual, exact same trucks with different axle ratios are rated for 8000 or 9000 pounds.

Same engine, same brakes, same transmission. Everything else the same.

[67L48]

Originally Posted by mjones12

No one has mentioned axles. [...]

From page 2 ...

Originally Posted by Retired JSO

[...] The release of the 2017 SuperDuty brought about some revisions to the axles in order to support the additional power and towing capacity compared to the previous 2011-2016 model year generation.

Up front, its basically unchanged with the use of a 35 spline Super Dana 60. Out back, however, there are several variations depending on the capacity of the truck.

For those with an F-250, there are two axles that could be residing under your bed. If your truck is equipped with the Heavy Duty Tow Package, you've got a Dana M275 featuring a 10.8" ring gear. For those F-250's without the HD Tow Package, you'll have the tried and true Sterling 10.5 that has been used for years, still featuring a 10.5" ring gear.

Moving from there, the F-350 Single Rear Wheel (SRW) models are equipped with the same Dana M275 as the properly equipped 250's. Next, Dual Rear Wheel (DRW) F-350 and F-450's are bumped to a Dana M300 with a massive 11.8" ring gear. The 10.5" has 35 spline axles, where the M275 has 36 splines, and the M300 boasts 37 splines.

From the factory, these housings were typically stuffed with the popular 3.31 ratio, but also had options for 3.55, 3.73, or 4.30 ratios.
[spacing added]

[mjones12]

Originally Posted by 67L48

From page 2 ...

Sorry. Missed that. Still not sure why it makes such a big difference, with all other major components being the same.

[moose074]

Originally Posted by mjones12

No one has mentioned axles.

My 2010 Silverado 1500 is rated to tow 7600 pounds. But according to the chart in owners manual, exact same trucks with different axle ratios are rated for 8000 or 9000 pounds.

Same engine, same brakes, same transmission. Everything else the same.

Yes gearing plays an important role in power transfer to tires. Ford offers 3:55 gearing in their 150 thru 350 . The 250 and 350 axles with same gearing are the same axle in most year models. In the USAF we pulled over 100k ( no tongue weight just plate steel on tow vehicle) with a dodge 318, or the old GM diesel from early 80’s. That said we were geared so low that if the truck ever got over 17 mph probably meant you dropped your tranny with all the bouncing and head downhill

[AndreTheGiant]

The best truck upgrade for towing is longer wheel base.

Pulling a TT with a 1/2 ton and then with 1 ton - the difference in control was astonishing. Power-wise and stopping, both trucks did just fine.


As far as 3/4 vs 1 ton, not really sure what you'd expect to happen, besides the things you already mentioned (higher payload, etc.). I know that with Ram, you can't get the HO Cummins and Aison in a 3/4.

[Hersbird]

The term heavy duty platform or heavy duty truck really doesn't apply to any pickup ever made. Medium duty barely applies to 3500 pickups. Under 10,000 pounds is a class 1 or 2 light duty truck no matter what chrome trim the manufacturer sticks on the door.