3/4 ton vs 1 ton Feeling the difference real or imagined

[moose074]

I admit I went the wrong way with my first TT.I had a Ram 2500 Cummings and went to a Toyota Tundra. Yes I didn’t have the same power and WD was no longer an option, but my driving experience didn’t change. I now drive a Ram Dually coming from an F 350 swd. Again I haven’t had the eye opening changes I continue to read about on this forum. My question as I continue to read how “more truck is better “and that going from smaller size to bigger size has been night and day improvement in seat of the pants feel in control with bigger truck ect. Is the feeling real . I am not talking about the bumper dragging overweight truck to the i now have 2k extra payload after loading. I assumed it was weight since power train is the same the body is the same. So truck must be heavier thicker frame ect. However I looked at several charts and not a big enough weight difference. To justify the statement “you can pull it but can you stop it” that I read often when in the threads on truck and towing. I know I post a lot of controversial topics but it’s really a way of learning for me and I hope for others. Do you really feel a difference in handling or is it the comfort of knowing you have capacity to spare. I attached a weight chart I found yes there are other weights and it’s not two identical trucks that just rolled off a scale. However it was the last of several charts or sites that appeared to be same in numbers

[DieselDrax]

Your post is kind of all over the place, the subject says 3/4 ton to 1 ton but in your post you say you went from an F350 to a Ram dually. Did you mean F250? If not then you went from a 1 ton SRW to a 1 ton DRW. Unless you’re towing a large 5th wheel I don’t expect you’d see or experience much difference with that change.

Why did you switch from the Ford to the Ram?

In the past I was towing a 31 foot TT with a half ton at its limit and went to a 1 ton SRW Ram Megacab with the Cummins. 3/4 ton Megacab diesel has awful payload numbers, wasn’t worth considering. Anyway, it was a night and day difference for us in terms of towing experience.

You didn’t mention what you’re towing, either, or why you made all these vehicle changes so it’s hard for me to decipher your experience or why you’re expecting a huge change in towing experience.

[SlowrideHD]

I can only speak to my own experience but I've been camping and towing bumper pull, gooseneck and fifth wheel trailers for 50 years. I pulled the camper in my signature with a SRW F250 powerstroke 4x4. It pulled it just fine with plenty of power but in windy or stormy conditions, the stability was not confidence inspiring. Also the braking in downhill mountains was a bit lacking (the front end would shake on the F250 4x4).
I traded for the long bed, super duty dually in my signature line and have pulled through all variety of weather. Thunder storms, Texas and Arizona wind storms, mountains, hot and cold. Doesn't matter, it handles it all with easy driveability. Plenty of power, plenty of stop. Doesn't sway in high winds.
I would never go back to pulling a large fifth wheel with a single rear wheel truck.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by SlowrideHD

I can only speak to my own experience but I've been camping and towing bumper pull, gooseneck and fifth wheel trailers for 50 years. I pulled the camper in my signature with a SRW F250 powerstroke 4x4. It pulled it just fine with plenty of power but in windy or stormy conditions, the stability was not confidence inspiring. Also the braking in downhill mountains was a bit lacking (the front end would shake on the F250 4x4).
I traded for the long bed, super duty dually in my signature line and have pulled through all variety of weather. Thunder storms, Texas and Arizona wind storms, mountains, hot and cold. Doesn't matter, it handles it all with easy driveability. Plenty of power, plenty of stop. Doesn't sway in high winds.
I would never go back to pulling a large fifth wheel with a single rear wheel truck.

Hmmm, couple of things...


The brakes for the F250 and F350 are identical in terms of calipers, pads, and rotor size. The only difference between F-250 SRW and F-350 DRW is the wheel mount for the front wheels. If you had braking problems with the F-250 then it wasn't due to towing weight.


Which brings me to my second point. People talk about needing enough truck to stop but it seems many folks don't realize it's not the truck's job to stop the trailer under normal circumstances. The trailer brakes should be properly adjusted to handle stopping the trailer and the TV's brakes handle stopping the TV. If the TV is having to work hard to stop the trailer then your trailer brakes or brake controller aren't properly adjusted or there's something wrong with them, such as grease contamination of the trailer brake shoes and drums.


F-250 SRW PSD -> F-350 DRW PSD difference is 2 more tires and different springs. Same frame, same brakes, same axles, same powertrain. This is for the trucks made in the past ~10 years or so and comparing same year/generation trucks.


Anyway, glad you have a setup you're happy with. Just wanted to mention what seem to be some common misconceptions when it comes to brakes and braking.

[67L48]

Try a couple of these: "A paragraph is a self-contained unit of a discourse in writing dealing with a particular point or idea. A paragraph consists of one or more sentences [...] and is used to organize longer prose." It will make it much easier for people to read and understand your questions/thoughts.

There are a few advantages to a HD platform over a light duty one:

• Payload and other capacity ratings. Before we even get into feel, comfort, and drivability, there is a question of GVWR, GCWR, GAWR, and, Payload.
  
  An HD will give you more theoretical towing capability. 1/2 tons and smaller vehicles may have ample tow ratings, but will run out of payload long before you ever get there.
  
• Wheelbase. The longer the wheelbase, the more stable the tow will be. Usually, going to HD means that the truck is longer.
  
  I didn't notice much difference here in going from 1/2 ton to 1 ton with my current trailer. I did notice a difference when going from Ford Explorer V8 to 1/2 ton when towing a 3,500 lb pop-up, though.
  
• Weight ratios. As your trailer grows in size and weight, it can begin to dominate the relationship ... your TV can start getting pushed around by the trailer. An HD truck will add more weight and better control this relationship.
• Towing "devices." From more capable receivers, to stiffer frames, to "integrated sway control," the HD trucks may have more features dedicated expressly for better/safer towing experiences.
• Brakes. Bigger trucks = heavier trucks = bigger brakes. Not sure how significant this is, as your trailer brakes should be bearing a lot of the brunt.
  
  HD trucks, and especially diesels, will have much more active engine braking. This is critical for navigating long, steep grades like the Ike Gauntlet.

Whether or not any of these are significant or whether you can feel these differences is highly situational. Depends on the TV platforms under comparison, the trailers being towed, terrain, weather, how sensitive your feeling is, and on and on.

Good luck.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by 67L48

• Brakes. Bigger trucks = heavier trucks = bigger brakes. Not sure how significant this is, as your trailer brakes should be bearing a lot of the brunt.
  

As I mentioned above, this isn't always true. Going from 1/2-ton to an HD truck, yes, but going from 3/4-ton to 1-ton no. Same brakes. Ford, Ram, GM. Doesn't matter, all else being equal the 3/4-ton and 1-ton trucks have the same brakes. SRW vs DRW doesn't even matter here, again all else being equal (same engine, etc).

• 
  HD trucks, and especially diesels, will have much more active engine braking. This is critical for navigating long, steep grades like the Ike Gauntlet.

Being an HD truck doesn't increase engine braking just because it's an HD truck. The same engine in an HD truck and a 1/2-ton truck will have the same amount of engine braking. The non-service-brake braking ability in an HD truck would come from a retarder in the transmission or the exhaust brake on the diesel. For example, since GM was putting the Allison behind the gas motor in the HD trucks those trucks could take advantage of the Allison 1000's input retarder to assist with maintaining/slowing down hills. Nothing to do with the engine. The Duramax's exhaust brake adds to the transmission retarder to provide even more downhill braking without having to use the service brakes.

[moose074]

Ok so I didn’t use proper grammar my bad. I did leave lots of room for confusion. I don’t type as fast as I think and I often don’t communicate what I want because my brain is thinking about spelling or is already onto the next paragraph.
I currently pull a 42 ft Wildcat 383MB. I switched from the SRW to a Dually for no other reason than I could. Not trying to be rude or funny. I was bored went to dealership liked the unloaded ride better and turn radius, my daughter said more room in back seat. So I left with it.

The reason I change vehicles so often I can’t say I just do I know it’s not wise financially. The reason I went back to HD truck was wife wanted a bigger trailer and I knew I was over payload by a lot with the truck and trl combo I had. So when she said bigger trailer. I got a bigger truck the f 350 and not until after I bought the Ram did I even think I was overweight but I was.

[67L48]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

As I mentioned above, this isn't always true. Going from 1/2-ton to an HD truck, yes, but going from 3/4-ton to 1-ton no. [...]

Agreed. I thought I had stated that I was comparing light duty platforms to HD ones. Within the HD platform, yes, that relationship falls apart and everything is pretty similar.

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

[...] Being an HD truck doesn't increase engine braking just because it's an HD truck. The same engine in an HD truck and a 1/2-ton truck will have the same amount of engine braking. [...]

Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with your analysis. But, I guess I've never seen a modern 1/2 ton truck with the same engine/transmission combination as its 3/4 or 1 ton big brothers.

So, i had some built-in assumptions. When you go from a 1/2 ton to a HD, it generally means you have a different (bigger) engine/transmission and those might be tuned for better shift points, tow/haul modes, and other ratios that improve engine braking.

I think a 5.0L F-150 with a 6R80 and a 6.2L F-350 with a 6R140 will have different engine braking characteristics ... and I'm pretty sure you can't get either the 6.2L or 6R140 in the F-150 platform. Maybe other brands aren't the same though.

Originally Posted by moose074

Ok so I didn’t use proper grammar my bad. [...]

Sorry. My petty sniping wasn't so much about grammar as it was about readability. Similar to when a person types a big block of text in all caps. Content might be great, but it's so difficult to read, that the potential audience is lost. I just want your questions not to get lost in the shuffle.

And no need to apologize for buying new trucks and switching. We all have hobbies and we all choose how to spend our money. We shouldn't have to apologize for that.

I'm sure there's a large contingent of people who think it's insane to drop tens of thousands of dollars on poorly made boxes on wheels so that we can pretend to live in the woods for a few days here and there.

[moose074]

Originally Posted by 67L48

Try a couple of these: "A paragraph is a self-contained unit of a discourse in writing dealing with a particular point or idea. A paragraph consists of one or more sentences [...] and is used to organize longer prose." It will make it much easier for people to read and understand your questions/thoughts.

There are a few advantages to a HD platform over a light duty one:

• Payload and other capacity ratings. Before we even get into feel, comfort, and drivability, there is a question of GVWR, GCWR, GAWR, and, Payload.
  
  An HD will give you more theoretical towing capability. 1/2 tons and smaller vehicles may have ample tow ratings, but will run out of payload long before you ever get there.
  
• Wheelbase. The longer the wheelbase, the more stable the tow will be. Usually, going to HD means that the truck is longer.
  
  I didn't notice much difference here in going from 1/2 ton to 1 ton with my current trailer. I did notice a difference when going from Ford Explorer V8 to 1/2 ton when towing a 3,500 lb pop-up, though.
  
• Weight ratios. As your trailer grows in size and weight, it can begin to dominate the relationship ... your TV can start getting pushed around by the trailer. An HD truck will add more weight and better control this relationship.
• Towing "devices." From more capable receivers, to stiffer frames, to "integrated sway control," the HD trucks may have more features dedicated expressly for better/safer towing experiences.
• Brakes. Bigger trucks = heavier trucks = bigger brakes. Not sure how significant this is, as your trailer brakes should be bearing a lot of the brunt.
  
  HD trucks, and especially diesels, will have much more active engine braking. This is critical for navigating long, steep grades like the Ike Gauntlet.

Whether or not any of these are significant or whether you can feel these differences is highly situational. Depends on the TV platforms under comparison, the trailers being towed, terrain, weather, how sensitive your feeling is, and on and on.

Good luck.

So to clarify my intentions of the post I will use your response not to argue but you did a better job answering than I did asking. I wasn’t trying to ask how come I don’t feel the difference. I was asking how much of a difference is there really between a 3/4 ton and a 1 ton with same options.

You mention weight ratios. Which was one reason for the post and why I posted the curb weight of Ford Superduties. I have read many post including one this morning that mentioned they went from a 2500 to 3500 and having “ more truck” made a huge difference in their experience. I can’t argue their experience but did adding a couple of hundred pounds at the most make the difference that they could feel. Or was it in their mind now they have a bigger number on the badging of their truck.

[67L48]

Well, I answered the wrong question. You should defer to Drax, as his answers were on-point to your needs. I was going down the Lt Duty vs HD rabbit hole ... which isn't going to be as helpful for you. My bad.

1 tons aren't really "more truck" than 3/4 tons (SRWs). In fact, this is part of the reason many 3/4 ton diesel owners don't care if they're 1,000 lbs over payload ... it's the same as a 1 ton with a different sticker.

Again, Drax is spot on here.

I don't know much about DRW differences, so won't comment. Ford's F-450 may be "more truck," based on frame thickness and axles. Again others would have to comment and I don't know if GM or Ram have an F-450 equivalent.

[moose074]

You good 67L48 you were trying to help answer a question that wasn’t clearly stated. Your also on point with your second paragraph, it’s my opinion that most people know the weights and capabilities of their trucks without realizing that that the exact same truck in a 250 is really not that different. In fact since power train, brakes, and body are the same the added weight of the extra spring vs say an airbag actually deducts from the trucks braking and acceleration since it’s heavier. That said I won’t because I honestly don’t think that few of pounds does make a difference. It’s like saying you can feel the difference in handling and performance with and without a passenger.

[DrLewie]

Originally Posted by 67L48

Well, I answered the wrong question. You should defer to Drax, as his answers were on-point to your needs. I was going down the Lt Duty vs HD rabbit hole ... which isn't going to be as helpful for you. My bad.

1 tons aren't really "more truck" than 3/4 tons (SRWs). In fact, this is part of the reason many 3/4 ton diesel owners don't care if they're 1,000 lbs over payload ... it's the same as a 1 ton with a different sticker.

Again, Drax is spot on here.

I don't know much about DRW differences, so won't comment. Ford's F-450 may be "more truck," based on frame thickness and axles. Again others would have to comment and I don't know if GM or Ram have an F-450 equivalent.

When I was researching trucks to pull my 13k 5th wheel I found that the charts (2008) for the F-250 diesel and the F-350 diesel under the same configuration (rear, body style, etc.) were exactly the same in towing capacity, load capacity, etc.. The only difference I saw was the price. I went with the F-250, and haven't regretted it. I've towed my fivers well over 100k in 10 years, east coast to west coast and back 5 times, including several trips through the high Rockies and other challenging conditions and never felt the truck was under powered or had issues braking. Admittedly I haven't compared driving my 3/4 with a 1 ton pulling my rig, but the 250 was more than adequate. Like so many other issues debated on this forum, I think this comes down to personal preference.

[jwfrede]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

Hmmm, couple of things...


Which brings me to my second point. People talk about needing enough truck to stop but it seems many folks don't realize it's not the truck's job to stop the trailer under normal circumstances. The trailer brakes should be properly adjusted to handle stopping the trailer and the TV's brakes handle stopping the TV. If the TV is having to work hard to stop the trailer then your trailer brakes or brake controller aren't properly adjusted or there's something wrong with them, such as grease contamination of the trailer brake shoes and drums.


Anyway, glad you have a setup you're happy with. Just wanted to mention what seem to be some common misconceptions when it comes to brakes and braking.

Now that you mentioned it, trailer braking that is, I would like to know where folks have set the brake controller on their F-150, preferably 2016 model. I have a trailer I estimate at 5500 lb and set the controller at 5.

It seems that it is not enough coming down some long steep hills. I came to the 5 setting by driving around 20-25 mph on the level and putting on just the trailer brakes and it comes to a stop in what seems a reasonable distance. If I put it at 6 I can get it to lock up. Not sure if I've locked the trailer brakes under normal braking, i.e., when the truck is also braking. This could be trailer dependent so any APEX folks response would be appreciated. I'm heading to the Canadian Rockies and am thinking about moving it up to 6(after double checking the 20-25mph trailer brake test).

[MikeRP]

Good topic. If you have an older 250/2500 (greater than 6 yrs) and you go to a late model duelie you are gonna say Wow. But if you went to a late model 3500 Srw you would have said Wow.

You got Mr Big Truck Big RV out there towing 14500 lbs w an F450. ThATs clearly in the range of an F350 SRW. But he’s got a business and he likes duelies. Peace

[Aggie Dad]

I got lost on your post

[frank4711]

Thanks to DRAX and 67L48 for there efforts to help us ... getting to the question the OP has is a test of patience and ya'll do good job... my apologies to 67L48 for my typing and lack of proper grammar and format ... Clearly there is a difference in trucks ... I will admit I never once looked at a payload # max tow or any other capacity on the many trucks I used in my lawn maintenance business 25 years ... I pulled my small trailer with 1/2 tons my big trailers with 3/4 and my dump trucks were 1 ton... My focus was always one thing can I stop that rig ... they all will pull it .... Brake maintenance and a working quality brake controller and good wiring will keep you alive... Thanks Frank

[MikeRP]

Originally Posted by Aggie Dad

I got lost on your post

Haha I did too! The value of a late model 2500 truck is totally underrated. It’s ability to haul heavy is underrated. I wouldn’t want to put a 17000 pound fiver on one but I’d put 14500 lbs and 3000 lbs on pin weight and not look back. And I believe the 250/2500 truck would totally be in control of the load.

Peace

[Mtelkman]

Drax wrote:
"F-250 SRW PSD -> F-350 DRW PSD difference is 2 more tires and different springs. Same frame, same brakes, same axles, same powertrain."

Just as a point of reference, on my year Superduty truck (2001), that is not true, The dually has a totally different and narrower rear axle than the single rear wheel F250/F350. Frame is the same, brakes are the same, engine/trans are the same, the springs are different, and the driveshaft is a touch shorter on the dually. The front axle is the same but there are wheel adapters on the front of the dually to allow the use of dually wheels.

Now if you had said that the SRW F250 and SRW F350 of my year are the same with the exception of the springs you would be correct.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Mtelkman

Drax wrote:

"F-250 SRW PSD -> F-350 DRW PSD difference is 2 more tires and different springs. Same frame, same brakes, same axles, same powertrain."



Just as a point of reference, on my year Superduty truck (2001), that is not true, The dually has a totally different and narrower rear axle than the single rear wheel F250/F350. Frame is the same, brakes are the same, engine/trans are the same, the springs are different, and the driveshaft is a touch shorter on the dually. The front axle is the same but there are wheel adapters on the front of the dually to allow the use of dually wheels.



Now if you had said that the SRW F250 and SRW F350 of my year are the same with the exception of the springs you would be correct.

Please read that whole paragraph you quoted and include it for context. I specifically mentioned that this is only the case for more recent trucks. Your 2001 is well outside the year range I was talking about.

[Retired JSO]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

Hmmm, couple of things...


The brakes for the F250 and F350 are identical in terms of calipers, pads, and rotor size. The only difference between F-250 SRW and F-350 DRW is the wheel mount for the front wheels. If you had braking problems with the F-250 then it wasn't due to towing weight.


Which brings me to my second point. People talk about needing enough truck to stop but it seems many folks don't realize it's not the truck's job to stop the trailer under normal circumstances. The trailer brakes should be properly adjusted to handle stopping the trailer and the TV's brakes handle stopping the TV. If the TV is having to work hard to stop the trailer then your trailer brakes or brake controller aren't properly adjusted or there's something wrong with them, such as grease contamination of the trailer brake shoes and drums.


F-250 SRW PSD -> F-350 DRW PSD difference is 2 more tires and different springs. Same frame, same brakes, same axles, same powertrain. This is for the trucks made in the past ~10 years or so and comparing same year/generation trucks.


Anyway, glad you have a setup you're happy with. Just wanted to mention what seem to be some common misconceptions when it comes to brakes and braking.

Not entirely correct.
The release of the 2017 SuperDuty brought about some revisions to the axles in order to support the additional power and towing capacity compared to the previous 2011-2016 model year generation. Up front, its basically unchanged with the use of a 35 spline Super Dana 60. Out back, however, there are several variations depending on the capacity of the truck. For those with an F-250, there are two axles that could be residing under your bed. If your truck is equipped with the Heavy Duty Tow Package, you've got a Dana M275 featuring a 10.8" ring gear. For those F-250's without the HD Tow Package, you'll have the tried and true Sterling 10.5 that has been used for years, still featuring a 10.5" ring gear. Moving from there, the F-350 Single Rear Wheel (SRW) models are equipped with the same Dana M275 as the properly equipped 250's. Next, Dual Rear Wheel (DRW) F-350 and F-450's are bumped to a Dana M300 with a massive 11.8" ring gear. The 10.5" has 35 spline axles, where the M275 has 36 splines, and the M300 boasts 37 splines. From the factory, these housings were typically stuffed with the popular 3.31 ratio, but also had options for 3.55, 3.73, or 4.30 ratios.