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Old 07-12-2013, 01:25 PM   #11
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To play the devil's advocate here and not really side either way. For Dodges at least the only difference between the 2500 and 3500 (single rear wheel) is the rear leaf spring package. The 3500 has a high spring ratio than the 2500 giving it the extra payload. I'm not saying to do so or that it is okay to do but one can increase the rear spring ratio of a 2500 in a number of ways IE: air bags, helper springs or completely swap to the 3500 leaf setup. The 2500s payload is limited by the springs as that is the weakest link, everything else is the same as the 3500.

I'm going to agree with Rugged Brown and say that ependydad does tend to err to the safe side. I am going to try and put it as politely as I can and I'm sorry if anyone becomes offended but I feel that much of this is due to his background. I feel from the things I have read that he has responded gives the impression that specin' a rig, building a rig and pulling/backing large trailers is fairly foreign to him. There is nothing wrong with this, but to me people with no real background in it become sponges and absorb EVERYTHING they hear and read online, which is generally posted/blogged by similar folk with similar backgrounds...

Ultimately what I am trying to say is that everyone is going to opinions. Some are built upon experience, some upon their own beliefs/teachings and some upon their own ignorance.

My opinion here, the only truly helpful response thus far would be Turbos. The original post hasn't even spec'd a trailer yet. He simply stated he was looking at the neighborhood of 14,000LBS... That is only part of the equation. Turbo was after more information on the trailer as well as the truck to fill in the remainder of the equation... Until you know what the dry pin weight of the truck is how can you harp stating that he will be over weight? There are still too many factors to be figured and I don't feel that any of the other responses really got anywhere...

As Turbs said, we will need more info on the truck and trailer. Also would like to know your plans, where you plan to go and who you plan to bring with... All this plays in...
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
I'm going to agree with Rugged Brown and say that ependydad does tend to err to the safe side. I am going to try and put it as politely as I can and I'm sorry if anyone becomes offended but I feel that much of this is due to his background.
avolnek, you're absolutely right- I do tend to err on the side of caution. However, you're wrong about the point of my background as to being the "why". It's not because I'm a newbie, it's because it's in my nature. It's who am I and how I do things. When I kayaked, I was also firmly in the "always wear a PFD", "don't kayak in cold water without proper thermal attire", carried safety equipment in case things went bad, knew multiple rescues and filed float plans with my wife with escalation procedures. It wasn't because I was a newbie, it's because I am risk-adverse and safety-conscience.

That said, yes- I'm fairly a newbie at towing. But, it doesn't minimize my opinion or recommendation. The math is simple: GVWR minus truck weight minus cargo minus pin weight. You're either over *specs* or you're under. I'm not sure how turbo's input was "better" than mine, as I gave the information for how to determine your numbers.

And yes, I stand by my blanket statement - at 14,000 pounds for a camper, you're likely going to be over GVWR. Going by the standard 20%-25% pin weight percentages, you're looking in the ballpark of 2,800-3,500 pounds. Even with a camper like mine that's as low as 16% for an approximately 14,000-wet camper, you're looking at a pin weight of 2,300 pounds. Making the same over-generalization, once you add the weight of driver, passenger, cargo and hitch- yes, I think most people pulling big fifth wheels with a 3/4-ton truck are over GVWR. Can it be done within specs? Absolutely. Are there many people within specs? Absolutely.

I also want to point out- I don't mean to say or imply that going over your specs means that you're unsafe or a bad person or going to kill your truck or even that you're insurance will instantly be denied in the case of an accident - *I don't believe any of those things*. I simply feel that you should stick within your ratings- they're published numbers and I'm a simpleton.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:21 PM   #13
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erring to the side of caution is your way which could also be considered your background could it not? I never once said there was anything wrong with this way. I too am a very cautious and meticulous individual when it comes to towing safety. I feel that I have become very proficient due to my very hands on, agricultural and experimental background.

I feel that you are jumping the gun stating that he will be over weight... There are a number of 5ers with much less than 20% tongue weight. In fact there are a number of 5ers from forest river that are under 2000LBS while still having a total weight of 14,000lbs... It would only make sense for them to make as MANY of their rigs fit into a 3/4 ton parameters as I would be willing to bet that the majority of folk here have 3/4 ton pickups... Regardless, no one is capable to answering the original question until ALL the facts are presented! How do you know he was even saying the dry weight was the 14,000lbs... Maybe the GVWR and not the dry...

I don't mean to discredit your thoughts and opinions but I don't feel the advice you have given here is correct! Looking at your rig, first off I am jealous of the truck for sure, but I feel that since you have the 1 ton you almost act as if you look down on the 3/4 ton owners. Your camper would and could be pulled by a 3/4 all day everyday. You had stated the average tongue weight is 20-25% of the weight of the trailer... Have you looked at yours? From the specs I see the total dry weight is 11,840 with a dry tongue of 1,825 that is roughly 15% tongue weight... There are a NUMBER of trailers with similar weights, completely capable of falling within the specs of a 3/4 ton.

So as I stated before, I believe that argument that you have been stressing isn't 100% true, and regardless of whether it is or not, we don't have all the facts and can't answer with certainty anyways!
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:41 PM   #14
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It is- I read your post that my background was due to being a newbie and wanted to clarify that is isn't the reason.

The rest- I don't understand at all what we're arguing/disagreeing about. My intention was to help the Op understand the ratings and how it may apply to his situation.

I guess I should have avoided the generalization that 3/4-ton trucks are over GVWR (regardless if I think so or not). Can you pull my camper with a 3/4-ton? Yes, will you be over GVWR? It depends- I have a real *scaled* pin weight of 2,300 pounds with a light load for me (it was unusually lightly packed).

I most certainly don't look down my nose at 3/4-ton trucks, 1/2-ton trucks or even SRW trucks. I'm sorry if my posts imply otherwise.

I still stand by my belief that I will stay within my truck's ratings and suggest that people new to towing and trucks should, also. If they/you choose to exceed the ratings, have at it. I'd just prefer that people do it knowingly. It's just not *my* way.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:44 PM   #15
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Wink Thank you for imput

However I am looking for someone who has a newer dodge ram 2500 diesel.and their experiences towing.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:05 PM   #16
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how new are you talking Ecclesiastes... still pretty vague as to what you are asking... I can tell you this for certain though... and almost with complete certainty that even ependydad I would agree that pulling with a Cummins turbo diesel will be next to none! Especially if you owned nothing but gas prior...

The 2500 and 3500 will pull the same over all weight. The disagreement between ependydad and I was based on paylod (what the truck can carry)... The payload is the only difference between the 2500 and 3500 so you can really get a good idea as to how they pull from either the 2500 or 3500 guys. The 3500 may/should comment that they will be/are more stable due to higher spring rate in the rear...

As for mine, a 2006 2500, the thing pulls like an animal. I prefer the 5.9 over the 6.7 due to simplicity of the motor vs the 6.7... The 6.7 can have the exhaust gas revolution system deleted as well the exhaust opened up to help release some of the back pressure and be just as reliable if not more so than the 5.9...

The 6.7 came out in 2007.5 in 2008 they introduced the exhaust brake which is a huge plus!

If you actually purchased a cummins and plan to tow with it I HIGHLY recommend getting some gauges installed to monitor the vitals... I personally installed a Bully Dog Triple Dog GT tuner with gauges. I monitor my boost, trans temp, egt and fuel pressure with the programmer as well as run it on the towing tune adding roughly 40HP.

I suggest the gauges because the diesels worst enemy is going to be heat... To minimize heat you will want to tow with lower Exhaust Gas Temperatures. If you are not watching the EGTs you can actually melt down pistons and or valves... The 2010s and newer have gauges for the trans already built in...
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:40 PM   #17
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Thanks for input avonek I saw you have a sv305 how do you like it? It has most everything I want in a 5 th we are retireing in a few years and plan on traveling and living in it . I have a cabin in Tennessee to fall back on .we presently live in Florida.WHAT MADE YOU PICK A TRAVIL TRAIL INSTED OF A 5 th thanks for your input
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:55 PM   #18
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We chose the SV305 because it is set up similar to the 5ers. We looked at several for nearly a year and it came down to the SV305 and the Coachmen Freedom Express 320BHDS. Reasoning for these two were that we REALLY wanted a second bedroom for guests/kids and an outdoor kitchen. We decided on wanting a couch that folded into a bed rather than just dedicated beds in the second bedroom. Then to choose from coachmen to the surveyor was the fact that we preferred the giant U shaped couch in the living area. At first glance I actually turned and walked out of the camper after seeing it... then after thinking about it, it just made sense. Having a table that can be moved to where you need it or completely removed if desired was a huge benefit. The table also folds down to coffee table height and that's how we have it when we are watching movies or such. The coachmen did have a coat closet and a little nicer shower in the bathroom... These two were pretty similar.

We chose the bumper pull vs the 5er due to the fact the wife didn't like the extra stairs, added height and it always seemed to sort of chop up the floor plan having the stairs, the two bumper pulls seemed to flow very nicely without any wasted space.... just seemed to feel better to us. I actually have every intent to buy a 5er but am VERY happy with the SV305. My ONLY complaint is I wish there was 1 more outside storage area for tools, wood, hitch, junk ect... I actually added a tool box to the tongue to provide me with some extra there...

We just spent a little over a week in it over the 4th. The temps got in the low 100's, the AC ran most of the day, but seemed to always keep up. Seems to be a very well built trailer, no issues that I have run into as of yet... Only issue I could see with living in it, is that it does have fairly small tanks in comparisons... only 36 gallons for all 3 I believe... but 4 of us used the stool for that week over the 4th without being hooked to sewage or water and only had to put an extra 5 gallons in the fresh. Didn't have to drop the black or gray tank till we left...

Big perks I seen with it is the all electric jacks/stabs, electric and gas water heater, tinted windows, slam latches... and sharp looking! Flat out really have no complaints...
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:49 PM   #19
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My 2 cents.

Tow Rating is what you can pull with that drive train (engine, trans, rear) and not what you can carry on the truck.

GVWR and Axle ratings will tell you how much the truck can carry without an unacceptable risk of breaking something.

Since a properly balanced 5th wheel's pin weight must fall between 15 and 25% of the total camper weight, a "14,000 pound camper" will REQUIRE a minimum pin load of 2100 pounds and can easily exceed 3000 pounds.

"MOST" 250/2500 pickup trucks do not have that much available payload remaining after you subtract hitch, family, pets, spare gas cans, and generator.
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Old 07-12-2013, 07:21 PM   #20
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Thanks avolnek our 2013 ram Laramie longhorn 2500 diesel is the big one with the big engine 6.7 with the lower gear ratio and all the gauges. it will pull any of the forest river 5 th we have been looking at .possibly one of the sandpipers .I appreciate your input. I will be more carefull how I word my questions from now on .people that have gas don't realize how much greater a diesel can pull. our load weight is 2400 lbs and has the tow package with it . I am not looking for someone to tell me how much I can tow. I am looking for someone who has a similar truck and tell me their experience with it.you selected many of the same items I want .the outside kitchen,bunk room for guest.and one of my questions I had planned was about who has a generator with theirs.cant wait to see the comments about that. I want a onan propane so I can fire it up a few hours at night for ac. At a rest area .
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