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07-24-2017, 03:06 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 213
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A question for mechanics and engineers
I tow a '98 Suzuki Sidekick with the 1.8L engine. The fan belt absolutely, positively will not stay tight! And it's getting worse. It used to last a few tankfuls, then just one tank, now it's down to 100 miles or so. At least six different shops at home and on the road have tried to find a reason and tightened the belt. Tired of paying, I invested in some extra long 15mm wrenches and have done it myself twice so far. (I'm now approaching the Alaskan Highway).
This engine has two belts: a serpentine that runs everything (including the water pump) but not the fan itself. The fan has a separate very short belt, about 12" when stretched out off the car.
Last year I had the belt replaced out of desperation. Shortly after, I took a run across the Bonneville Salt Flats for fun. As soon as I stopped, the radiator blew. I popped the hood and found the fan's belt missing! So as soon as the engine lost it's airflow, the radiator blew. The belt probably burnt off because the local shop found it's pulley bearings were in bad shape. They grinded hard when turned by hand after removal from the car.
I thought "Ah-hah, I finally found the problem!" and had a SUZUKI DEALERSHIP install a NEW SUZUKI pulley. But the symptoms did not change, it still gets loose. The new belt is about a year old and has been tightened at least 10 times so it finished any normal stretching long ago. And like I said, it's getting worse!
Each time it starts squealing, I raise the hood and push on it, finding it loose. The pulley itself feels perfect when turned by hand. All the shop mechanics and myself have found the adjustment (locking) bolts to be super tight, but the belt loose! ( I always verify it's tight when they're done).
So let's think about this. What holds the belt tight is the friction between the adjustment brace on the pulley and the engine block that is presses against when the bolts are tightened. So I thought maybe the bolts are a hair too long and are bottoming out in the bolt holes which disappear into the block. Yesterday while tightening the bolt, I removed the top one and carefully inspected the end. It is pristine, with a slight outward ridge left over from the manufacturing process, extending from the end of the bolt. There is absolutely no evidence that it has ever bottomed out.
Does anyone have any ideas how this belt keeps loosening? The brace must be moving across the block despite the friction provided by the bolts. I did not check the lower bolt so I guess it's conceivable that it's bottoming out but I doubt it.
Any ideas? Coaresly scratching the metal mating surfaces for more friction? Retrofitting to an electric fan? Hiring an excorcist?
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07-24-2017, 03:26 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Payson, AZ
Posts: 3,862
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just a stupid guess. if I understand the fan belt runs from a pulley on the engine block to the fan (probably behind the radiator). the brace and bolts you mention are probably on the block. could the entire block be moving in relation to the fan hub when the engine is running? perhaps torque from the engine is moving the block a bit and then it settles back into the position you see it in when not running. as it moves it could affect the belt. the opposite would be the fan / radiator moving. just a guess.
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07-24-2017, 03:46 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Northern KY
Posts: 5,724
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how about adding a star lock washer to the adjustment bolts...
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"nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle."
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07-24-2017, 06:48 PM
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#4
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 19
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If I read this correctly he's already saying after the fact when the belt is loose that his bolts and nuts are still tight. I am a mechanic for a living so I will chime in. 1st are these guys running the car for 10 to 15 mins after setting tension on the belt and then re checking and setting tension again. Thats supposed to be the proper way to do that and just to make sure I would double check the part number on the belt.I have seen a lot of times where guys go off of a part number on the belt when they should have been looking up the proper belt number through a parts catalog or the parts store.
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07-24-2017, 06:58 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Northern KY
Posts: 5,724
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Quote:
how about adding a star lock washer to the adjustment bolts...
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what I was trying to get at is that the added lockwasher might put some anti-twist capacity on the adjustment arm... as a matter of trying that I would go with a lockwasher on each side of the arm... preferably a STAR lockwasher rather than a split ring type
and I agree...
maybe the belt is not correct... not the correct width, and as the belt wears in the V-groove of the pulley it narrows further and consequently gets loose from not being thick enough.
Quote:
Each time it starts squealing
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This would account for the belt squealing.
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"nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle."
Thomas Jefferson to John Norvell pg. 2, June 11, 1807
2014 Shamrock 183
2014 RAM 1500 Bighorn Crew Cab, HEMI, 3.21 gears, 8 Spd, 4X4 TST TPMS
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07-25-2017, 12:07 PM
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#6
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Site Team
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Southwest Alabama
Posts: 9,850
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Have you marked the position of the tensioning bracket to see if it's moving?
Have you removed it and checked for wear at the pivot point?
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07-25-2017, 12:20 PM
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#7
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7 Year Class A RV'er
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Winter Park, FL
Posts: 1,068
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Just my two cents worth, but have you tried measuring the belt when it's installed and again when it gets loose? Is the belt stretching instead of the idler puller moving? Also, have you checked the bearings on the fan itself? If those bearings are bad, I would think it would be possible to wear down the outer edges of the belt, causing it to sink lower into the pulley groove, thus making it looser.
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07-25-2017, 12:29 PM
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#8
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Phat Phrog Stunt Team
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tipp City, OH
Posts: 7,154
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You changed the fan pulley, but have you looked at the crank pulley? Could be worn, allowing the belt to slip, build heat and wear prematurely. Check for pulley alignment also. The other possibility is to do away with the manual fan altogether and install an electric fan.
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07-25-2017, 01:39 PM
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#9
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Bowling Green Ohio
Posts: 84
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Have you thought about just removing the belt driven fan and replacing it with a 12 volt one like this. I know that it is not necessarily a fix but a darn good inexpensive work around.
JEGS Performance Products 52103
Universal Electric Fan 13" Diameter
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2014 Rockwood 8289
2013 Toyota Tundra
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07-25-2017, 01:53 PM
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#10
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Site Team
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 10,518
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I've just gotta ask- does the fan belt turn the water pump?
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07-25-2017, 01:59 PM
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#11
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Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 25
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check for rust on the pulleys
i ran into a similar situation on a motorhome many years ago and the rust was working like sand paper on the belt and would grind it down in a short period of time. The belt would get so loose that it would actually come off.
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07-25-2017, 02:12 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,916
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25+ in auto parts... I was told a decent belt(Dayco/Gates) will not stretch...they break.
Are they looking the belt by application?(as prev mentioned?) I might guess something has changed??
https://www.2carpros.com/questions/1...iagram-located
I assume it's a V-belt? See if this diagram looks correct
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07-25-2017, 02:20 PM
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#13
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Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 71
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1 make sure the Idler is spinning freely and does not any play around it's axle.
2 inspect both pulleys to see if they are 1 or 2 piece. If they are 2 piece insure they are mated together correctly. If they are not mated correctly the belt could be getting stuck between the half's. Quite the long shot, check the Idler first.
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07-25-2017, 02:25 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,916
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__________________
2017 Puma 297RLSS
2005 Ram 2500 4X4 diesel SMOKER!!
I love puns, irony and tasteless jokes...
born in Texas.... live in Arkansas
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07-25-2017, 05:58 PM
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#15
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Tallahassee, Fl
Posts: 68
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Alignment
Have you looked at the belt alignment between the two pulleys? Just get where you can see along the belt and make sure they are not skewed ... just a thought.
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2015 GMC 2500HD Denali Duramax Diesel
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07-25-2017, 09:03 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 213
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Thanks to all for the suggestions. I'm now in Dawson Creek, Mile 0 of The Alaskan Highway and headed north! Since I'm not broken down and only have occasional public wifi access, I'm going to wait until I return home in a few months to deal with this stupid belt issue. I've had it for 18 months, a few more won't kill me. I'll go back and review all your thoughts, thanks again.
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07-25-2017, 09:44 PM
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#17
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Gresham, OR
Posts: 50
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Be sure the belt is the correct WIDTH as well as length.
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07-26-2017, 08:19 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Euless, Texas
Posts: 117
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Belt alignment
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rango
Have you looked at the belt alignment between the two pulleys? Just get where you can see along the belt and make sure they are not skewed ... just a thought.
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My first thought also... it usually the simple item like this that gets overlooked!
If ok, then ensure you have the correct belt and pullys installed! Looks can be deceiving🤣
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07-26-2017, 01:45 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: North of Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaMan
You changed the fan pulley, but have you looked at the crank pulley? Could be worn, allowing the belt to slip, build heat and wear prematurely. Check for pulley alignment also. The other possibility is to do away with the manual fan altogether and install an electric fan.
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Most people don't understand how "V-Belts" actually work. They get their grip from the expansion of the sides as the belt bends over the "pulley", not by stretching the belt tighter and tighter.
I've seen this happen for years and when I tell people (including mechanics) to replace all the pulleys a V-Belt runs over the problem usually goes away.
When the old pulleys are examined the inside surfaces look more like "( )" than "\ /". Naturally proper alignment is important but look closely at the drive pulley attached to the crankshaft.
The modern serpentine "poly-V" belts are an improvement. Only surpassed by "Gilmer" belts that have actual drive lugs that match the drive/driven pulley's.
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