Advice for newbie about diesels

corky310 · 10-24-2019, 08:17 AM

I'm looking at buying a used F250 as a tow vehicle and I was wondering who can tell me what the pros and cons of the different Ford diesels are. 6.0, 6.4, 6.7, 7.3? I'm trying to stay in the 2003 and newer. Are there certain years that I should stay away from?

SeaDog · 10-24-2019, 08:30 AM

I had a 2006 F350 6.0 It was a great truck with that said I would advise staying away from the 6.0 unless you are prepared to do the on going maintenance. Its an international Navistar engine in the ford prone to EGR and oil cooler failures because of the coolant ford uses being silica based the Navistar in the international has very few failures in comparison because international uses Fleet Guard a citrus based coolant. They are a very strong engine that can be pumped way up in HP just maintenance heavy

corky310 · 10-24-2019, 08:33 AM

I'm not ruling out Dodges either. Are you finding the Cummins to be less maintenance than the 6.0 Navistar?

Arti · 10-24-2019, 08:36 AM

Had a Class C with the Ford 6.0 Diesel.
Sold it with 23,000 miles on it. I don't like sitting along the side of the road waiting for a tow truck. Anti Freeze leaks out of these motors.
Very expensive motor to maintain and repair.

Fuel economy was a dismal 9 mpg.

On the plus side the motor did run smooth and had a LOT of power.

Short answer on the Ford 6.0 I would not advise looking at one.
Do a web search on Ford 6.0 blow ....

SeaDog · 10-24-2019, 09:17 AM

I have a cummins now and really like this simple motor as compared to the 8 cylinder 6.0

007matman · 10-24-2019, 12:21 PM

And I would be the counter-argument guy to the 6.0. I currently own one with almost 170k. Personally, I don't think I'd take advise from someone who hasn't owned one and hasn't done the research to see what needs to be addressed.

From what I understand, the 6.0 was developed to be a strong runner with massive increases in both torque and HP over the 7.3. I can say that the difference is pretty big. I drove several 7.3's while I was shopping and the difference was pretty good.

From a broad perspective, the weak point to the 7.3 is HP and Torque as well as the transmission. Those were fully addressed with the 6.0. the trans is pretty close to bulletproof straight out of the factory. The Cummins can't say that with similar year trucks.

With 2003, truck manufacturers were asked to introduce stronger emissions controls and one of the things that was added was the EGR valve and the associated cooler which allows the exhaust gas to be cooled prior to re-burn. From what I understand, there was a great amount of friction between Ford and International with Ford wanting to take over production. Therefore, things that would have normally been sorted out prior to production were not completed. And therefore were addressed in the later years of the 6.0. That's why pretty much everyone that knows something about the 6.0 will recommend a 2006 or 2007 (the newer the better).

The most common issues for the later model trucks are the oil cooler and the EGR Cooler. My 2007 was purchased last year with 120k and had an oil cooler issue. It was an extremely clean truck, had been privately owned since new and had only been used to haul a camper. I did take it in to have the oil cooler replaced and while they were at it do head studs, address the EGR cooler issue, and rebuild any parts that had the possibility to be bad including the HPOP (High pressure Oil Pump), head gaskets, injector rebuild, revised rocker arms (needed when it is being studded and fire-ringed) and rebuilt turbo. They also added a coolant filter and did the blue spring upgrade to the fuel pump.

Inside spend $6400 on all this. However, what I have here now is a truck that'll go to 500k without issues. The way I see it is I could have purchased a much newer truck and had to eventually deal.with all the emissions crap (which is the biggest issue with modern diesels) or I could buy one that doesn't have a lot of those systems, address the weak points but has modern day power.

I like the styling of the '07 truck and did some interior upgrades (Android head unit, better speakers and Sub) to give it most of the conveniences of the modern-day trucks in an older style wrapper.

I love the truck and would have a hard time parting with it.

aircommuter · 10-24-2019, 12:46 PM

Why buy something that has had so many different engines? We have got it right this time? If those Ford engines are so good why did their partnership with Navistar end in a lawsuit over warranty repairs. What did Ford win in the lawsuit, the right to keep the powerstroke name. If the Ford diesels are so good why don't the industrial users who make, tractors, generators, pumps and so on use them? Answers are numerous, they are not reliable, hard to service, costly to service, lack of long term durability.

Cummins does not need to hide behind a made up sporty sounding name, they are easy to service, easy to get parts, cheaper to service, more compact design, the same proven design, and they are an engine company. As for the transmission comment, the Ford is anything but bullet proof. The only reason anyone might say that is because when the engine is brokedown it is not wearing out the transmission. Perhaps they have never seen the inside.

To be considered a good Diesel 170K miles is nothing.
I have been in the truck repair business over 50 years, now part time in my home shop, I will not work on the Ford engine. I like to feel like I accomplished something when I am done.

RedhawkCC · 10-24-2019, 12:58 PM

I owned a 2010 6.7 and drove it from 90k to 110k towing my 5th wheel. Had several premature parts failures that required shop repair. In both cases my Ford dealerships lied and tried to swindle me. My local diesel shop owner worked for Navistar for 12 years. He told me to sell the 2010 6.7 truck because the engine WILL fail, and it will be catastrophic. He tells me neither Ford nor Navistar understand the reasons for the 6.7 failures and Ford will not take responsibility for a bad product. I now own a 3 month old Ram, Cummins diesel truck and it's a superb truck. I could not recommend the older ford diesels unless you have a shop fully buttet proof the emissions systems, high pressure fuel system, and add a tuner. Good luck.

dwreefs · 10-24-2019, 01:10 PM

The 6.0 ford diesel was a virtual money pit . The actual engine wasn’t too bad but the rest of the system was very problematic. I drove many for work and wouldn’t touch one with a 20 foot pole . If you found one with all new pumps and bulletproof heads it would’ve ok but that is unlikely

007matman · 10-24-2019, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aircommuter

Why buy something that has had so many different engines? We have got it right this time? If those Ford engines are so good why did their partnership with Navistar end in a lawsuit over warranty repairs. What did Ford win in the lawsuit, the right to keep the powerstroke name. If the Ford diesels are so good why don't the industrial users who make, tractors, generators, pumps and so on use them? Answers are numerous, they are not reliable, hard to service, costly to service, lack of long term durability.

Cummins does not need to hide behind a made up sporty sounding name, they are easy to service, easy to get parts, cheaper to service, more compact design, the same proven design, and they are an engine company. As for the transmission comment, the Ford is anything but bullet proof. The only reason anyone might say that is because when the engine is brokedown it is not wearing out the transmission. Perhaps they have never seen the inside.

To be considered a good Diesel 170K miles is nothing.

I have been in the truck repair business over 50 years, now part time in my home shop, I will not work on the Ford engine. I like to feel like I accomplished something when I am done.

One word.. the fight was over "Emissions". Ford dumped it on Navistar last minute when development had already gone too far.

EVERYONE (INCLUDING CUMMINS) had issues with emissions.

There are downsides to every platform (Cummins included). For example, 4 of the 7 Cummins I drove had crappy transmissions. Wouldn't shift right or shifted really hard.

Cummins has had injector issues in the past as well as some issues with emissions as well.

The Dmax crowd has had them too. Don't let anyone fool you.. they all have their weak points.

The best advice I could give the OP is: "Do your research". Dig into every source and don't rely on just one voice. All platforms have issues that will need to be addressed.

I saw several 6.0's in the 300k mileage range and one that was over 500k. I plan to run mine to 500k or more.

aircommuter · 10-24-2019, 01:34 PM

I did not want to pile on too much in one post. There are more reasons than the average buyer knows. The newest version of the 6.7 powerstroke for example has two cooling systems and of course two water pumps. Why would anyone want to cooling systems to maintain. The pumps are not easy to change, nor are they easy to find when you are traveling. The second cooling system is for the charge air cooling, something that Cummins and Caterpillar did away with many years ago and theirs was not two separate systems. Air to air is the common system today (30 plus years), just that the Ford is so jammed under the hood they did not have room for the larger air cooling system may be the reason.

Cummins on the other hand has one water pump that is held on by 2 bolts and uses 1 "O" ring for sealing, the same part fits all of the 5.9 and 6.7 engines from day one. In addition the water pump does not support the fan, that is a separate larger bearing. This is just one of the many smart design features of an engine maker rather than a truck marketer.

Cummins and Ram/Dodge just recently passed the 3 million Cummins powered truck milestone.

Old codger · 10-24-2019, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedhawkCC

I owned a 2010 6.7 and drove it from 90k to 110k towing my 5th wheel. Had several premature parts failures that required shop repair. In both cases my Ford dealerships lied and tried to swindle me. My local diesel shop owner worked for Navistar for 12 years. He told me to sell the 2010 6.7 truck because the engine WILL fail, and it will be catastrophic. He tells me neither Ford nor Navistar understand the reasons for the 6.7 failures and Ford will not take responsibility for a bad product. I now own a 3 month old Ram, Cummins diesel truck and it's a superb truck. I could not recommend the older ford diesels unless you have a shop fully buttet proof the emissions systems, high pressure fuel system, and add a tuner. Good luck.

If you check, I believe you will find 2010 was not Navistar, but Fords first year diesel and there were some problems originally. I have a 2016 super duty 6.7 and like it really well. I have friends with all 3 brands of engines and there have certainly been problems with all 3 engines especially in development or change stage. There have also been many other problems besides engine in all 3 and they just have to be worked out. I would not hesitate to drive any of the three brands and hook a big load on behind.

Mikolow · 10-24-2019, 01:55 PM

Had a 2016 F-250 with the 6.7 and loved it. Traded it with 44k for a dually 350 (same basic engine). The 6.7 never missed a beat and only had to do oil changes about every 10k based on the computer. Only negative thing I had was that it would regenerate a lot when ran lightly. With my 5th wheel behind me, almost never.

Had Cummins in our Coast Guard boats and they were very good (as anchors). This coming from the guy that had to continually work on them. GM were better.

As stated by many others here, some have great luck, some bad but I think it somehow traces back to how they are maintained and operated.

aircommuter · 10-24-2019, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 007matman

One word.. the fight was over "Emissions". Ford dumped it on Navistar last minute when development had already gone too far.

EVERYONE (INCLUDING CUMMINS) had issues with emissions.

There are downsides to every platform (Cummins included). For example, 4 of the 7 Cummins I drove had crappy transmissions. Wouldn't shift right or shifted really hard.

Cummins has had injector issues in the past as well as some issues with emissions as well.

The Dmax crowd has had them too. Don't let anyone fool you.. they all have their weak points.

The best advice I could give the OP is: "Do your research". Dig into every source and don't rely on just one voice. All platforms have issues that will need to be addressed.

I saw several 6.0's in the 300k mileage range and one that was over 500k. I plan to run mine to 500k or more.

I have a customer with over 420k on a gas engine. You are talking about 300-500 on a Diesel?
Emission issues are one thing, poor design that cannot be changed is another, 8 different engines obviously not good.

If you had a transmission that did not shift right then it was not adjusted right. I have built dozens of automatic transmissions in my business. How many for you?
Most injector issues are fuel related if they occured at all. The Ford fuel systems have had numerous problems over the years. Actually over 500 parts were redesigned on the Navistar alone. They also require cab removal for many engine service work jobs, now that is engineering at its worst.
Like I said why aren't the industrial users just snapping up those Ford engines?
There are forums just for conversion of other vehicles to a Cummins. How a Ford?

richl167 · 10-24-2019, 02:24 PM

2016 RAM 3500 here. The diesel has been trouble free EXCEPT for a bad DEF pump which was replaced under warranty. The bad thing is that when an emission item fails, it warns you that you will go into "limp mode" limited to 5 MPH by the computer in like 250 miles. Another owner I read about actual hit the "limp mode" while getting it to a dealer and stated that the 5 mph limit starts after the 250 miles on startup or refuel, so if you are in a bind, refuel just BEFORE the 250 mile limit and don't turn off the engine. That ought to get you to a dealer. I'm betting Ford has the same issues. If I had to do over, I would look for a used truck without the urea (DEF) injection only for this reason. Otherwise, the truck has been great. Pulls like a dream. Be sure to use fresh DEF. If you don't put a lot of yearly miles on and live in a hot climate like I do, the DEF degrades with heat. I buy at truck stops and only fill a gallon and a half to two gallons at a time. I read it uses like 1 gallon of DEF to 50 gallons of diesel. MIne seems to use less, probably more when towing. I have 45000 miles on the truck.

DeltaMud · 10-24-2019, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richl167

2016 RAM 3500 here. The diesel has been trouble free EXCEPT for a bad DEF pump which was replaced under warranty. The bad thing is that when an emission item fails, it warns you that you will go into "limp mode" limited to 5 MPH by the computer in like 250 miles. Another owner I read about actual hit the "limp mode" while getting it to a dealer and stated that the 5 mph limit starts after the 250 miles on startup or refuel, so if you are in a bind, refuel just BEFORE the 250 mile limit and don't turn off the engine. That ought to get you to a dealer. I'm betting Ford has the same issues. If I had to do over, I would look for a used truck without the urea (DEF) injection only for this reason. Otherwise, the truck has been great. Pulls like a dream. Be sure to use fresh DEF. If you don't put a lot of yearly miles on and live in a hot climate like I do, the DEF degrades with heat. I buy at truck stops and only fill a gallon and a half to two gallons at a time. I read it uses like 1 gallon of DEF to 50 gallons of diesel. MIne seems to use less, probably more when towing. I have 45000 miles on the truck.

Have a 2016 GMC Sierra diesel. Engine light came on yesterday during my lunch break, same issue. Local dealer told me it may go into limp mode at anytime. I was planning a trip this weekend and it will be two-three weeks before they can even schedule a time to repair it.

AudiDudi · 10-24-2019, 02:56 PM

I have a 2000 F350 with the 7.3 - it seems to be bullet proof at about 200k miles. As mentioned above, it does have a lot less HP/TQ than the 6.0 - I added a Diablo Predator tuner good for up to an extra 100hp, along with a 4 inch MBRP stainless steel exhaust (stock is 3.5in) and gauges. Fuel economy increased from around 15 hwy to around 18. The 4R100 trany seems OK - just change the fluid every 30k or so.

The newer Fords also have a higher tow rating - for example, the new F150 has the same tow capacity as my 19yr old F350. (13.2k lbs - 20k GCWR)

007matman · 10-24-2019, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aircommuter

I have a customer with over 420k on a gas engine. You are talking about 300-500 on a Diesel?

Emission issues are one thing, poor design that cannot be changed is another, 8 different engines obviously not good.

If you had a transmission that did not shift right then it was not adjusted right. I have built dozens of automatic transmissions in my business. How many for you?

Most injector issues are fuel related if they occured at all. The Ford fuel systems have had numerous problems over the years. Actually over 500 parts were redesigned on the Navistar alone. They also require cab removal for many engine service work jobs, now that is engineering at its worst.

Like I said why aren't the industrial users just snapping up those Ford engines?

There are forums just for conversion of other vehicles to a Cummins. How a Ford?

400k on a gasser is a unicorn. It's possible to get there but highly doubtful of most gassers are ever going to get there. Typically, when you see that it's a fleet vehicle with highway miles.

I'm not going to debate the Ram trans. The issues there are well documented.

Well, the fuel issues with injectors can be an issue. Glad I can get new filters for my Powerstroke for $40. I understand that's quite a bit less than the Cummins.

Just about everything that was done to my truck can be done with the cab on. The only reason it was removed was to do the head studs.

Ford makes it easy to remove the cab and once you do so everything is very accessible. That's why many shops will pull the cab. Is it required to pull to replace a oil.cooler? No.

wiandt · 10-24-2019, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corky310

I'm not ruling out Dodges either. Are you finding the Cummins to be less maintenance than the 6.0 Navistar?

I have a 2104 Ram 3500 with the Cummins diesel. Extremely happy, plenty of torque and HP and very reliable. Always been a Ford guy but I love this truck.

jd4010 · 10-24-2019, 03:15 PM

Had a 6.0.

Did meticulous maintenance and care on that 6.0 including all the things short of head studs.

Loved my 6.0.

Until it left me stranded numerous times due to injector tips being broken and the engine hydrolocked. Nothing like replacing injectors when you are at Fort Wilderness. UGH. Or being towed to a Ford dealership on Christmas Eve.

No....had nothing to do with abuse or lack of maintenance. Even Ford didn't have an answer. But I did....traded it for a new 2017 with a 6.7 and never looked back.

Now I love my 6.7 (and the warranty on it too).

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