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Old 08-03-2014, 12:50 PM   #41
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So if it had a Mercedes badge in the hood it would reasonable priced? I think it's because premium vehicle companies have an excellent ad campaign. We are under the impression those prices are justified because it us a premium automobile when in reality, the prices are set because of demand.

Every car company has it's flagship, and as long as the sales keep rising, they will make higher-end models and more options for current ones. And as long as consumers keep buying, prices will always keep rising. Capitalism at its finest.

Everyone that is employed works for a company that will charge as much for their product as the market will endure. Just saying...


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Old 08-03-2014, 01:05 PM   #42
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I think a lot of people on here have a hard time justifying a $50k+ truck while they may have a E class Benz parked in their garage of their $500k home. Or maybe they go on a 2 week $10k European vacation every year. Hey, I only go to Europe every other year, and I don't spend half of $10K. I have a Jaguar and a Lexus in my garage and two houses, and I still cannot justify a $50K truck.

Everyone has a reason to justify everything they bought but can't imagine why someone else can spend $$$ on something they enjoy.

Things I can't believe people spend money on: little cars that if you got in a wreck you would be DOA, getting a $50 haircut, having someone clean your gutters, etc. Last time got cheap and cleaned my gutters, I fell off the ladder and broke both legs. And my back will never be the same either.

It's all relative. I agree about relativity. Being frugal is a way of life for my family, however.


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Old 08-03-2014, 02:11 PM   #43
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So if it had a Mercedes badge in the hood it would reasonable priced?

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absolutely not....I was just making a joke how the 60k+ msrp would be a little more warm and fuzzy feeling if it said Mercedes on the hood. (we actually own a couple them german luxury things and I like my fords just fine!)...if Mercedes or bmw made a heavy duty truck I cannot say I would not consider the option tho?

the reality is that with all the epa mandates , increased technology, and safety demands new vehicles are and will continue to be more expensive than those 10 or even 5 years older.

I understand and appreciate that I can own a 400+ hp 800+tq towing beast with all the same features for the most part as a luxury car that is quiet, gets decent fuel mileage, doesn't stink, and doesn't smoke....I paid a premium for those things....

my father in law bought the same truck, without all the "junk" as he called it....in his opinion he got a great deal....(we actually paid almost the same, but he is happy so that's all that matters)..
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Old 08-03-2014, 02:47 PM   #44
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On average (at least in my area) new car dealers take a $600 loss on an Internet sale just to make the deal.




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Old 08-03-2014, 03:53 PM   #45
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On average (at least in my area) new car dealers take a $600 loss on an Internet sale just to make the deal.




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ya know, its a shady thing...... there is a lot more involved than just the dealer (invoice) like holdbacks, volume bonuses, fees, etc...

anymore with the internet, pricing has become substantially more competitive, and the "wholesale managers" of large facilities know this.

its not just car dealers either, when I started business 15yrs ago we never had to "price match with shipping" or have meetings on which items we would make our "loss leaders"...never in a million years would I have thought that I would have to invest 25k to LOSE money on it, only to drive sales in other areas or to qualify for volume discounts on other lines with better margin....there is method and money (profit) in the madness, or we wouldn't do it or we wouldent be in business long!!

at the end of the year I (generally)don't look to see which customers spent where or got what deals...bottom line is profitability across the board as a whole...of course exceptional customers tend to stand out....

just goes to show that some people are getting GREAT deals.....but for all those who do, someone else is paying the premium or not buying where the VALUE is.....pick your side..LOL
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Old 08-03-2014, 03:54 PM   #46
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So if it had a Mercedes badge in the hood it would reasonable priced? I think it's because premium vehicle companies have an excellent ad campaign. We are under the impression those prices are justified because it us a premium automobile when in reality, the prices are set because of demand.

Every car company has it's flagship, and as long as the sales keep rising, they will make higher-end models and more options for current ones. And as long as consumers keep buying, prices will always keep rising. Capitalism at its finest.

Everyone that is employed works for a company that will charge as much for their product as the market will endure. Just saying...


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Well said. I totally agree that is the way it is. I just do not like it.

I feel like the oddball fish in all this because I will not buy it, but if everyone else is buying it and causing the price to rise then I really have little choice. I like the KISS theory. And the more bells and whistles they put in a car the more crap can just break. I must be getting too old. All these kids want Bluetooth, satellite radio, GPS, on-star, back up cameras, anti collision, anti roll over, self parking, TV monitors through out, etc. I really do not want this stuff. But like you said, everyone else does and the makers will produce what people want. So I go looking for a car and it will have all this stuff in it because someone else wanted it. To me it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Boy do I sound grumpy.

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Old 08-03-2014, 04:20 PM   #47
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Well said. I totally agree that is the way it is. I just do not like it.

I feel like the oddball fish in all this because I will not buy it, but if everyone else is buying it and causing the price to rise then I really have little choice. I like the KISS theory. And the more bells and whistles they put in a car the more crap can just break. I must be getting too old. All these kids want Bluetooth, satellite radio, GPS, on-star, back up cameras, anti collision, anti roll over, self parking, TV monitors through out, etc. I really do not want this stuff. But like you said, everyone else does and the makers will produce what people want. So I go looking for a car and it will have all this stuff in it because someone else wanted it. To me it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Boy do I sound grumpy.

Vin.
hey, you like what you like, and there is nothing wrong with that....

my fil and I have this argument/discussion all the time.. he does not want, nor need all the "junk" as he likes to put it...

you can walk into any dealership and have them order you a truck/car just the way you want (minus the most basic stuff) or around here the "work truck" packages are a dime a dozen....

your not the only one who doesn't want/need to pay for items perceived as non necessary luxuries...you may hafta look a lil bit harder or have em find you one, but the are and always will be out there..

as I said before, sometimes, given the rebates/incentives its a way better deal to get the junk even if you don't use it....(ie if for is doing 4000 discount on xlt AND a 1500 discount on an electronics grouping that is pretty much standard equip)

it is more crap to break tho....I kinda like the simplicity of the old 350 chevy with a distributor and a points system like I learned to wrench on back in the day..i still have one, but its like comparing a canoe to the titanic.....oh wait....it was new and great and it SANK! LOL...
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:34 PM   #48
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Made a decision on the last one I bought to keep for ever if not a lemon or something happen that destroyed it because of cost to buy another new one so far had almost 14 years and going strong. Will fix or rebuild as needed at this point cheaper than getting a new one. Preventative maintenance, Preventative maintenance, Preventative maintinance....
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Old 08-03-2014, 04:50 PM   #49
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On average (at least in my area) new car dealers take a $600 loss on an Internet sale just to make the deal.
Don't believe it. The factory invoice may be padded for 2-3% dealer holdbacks, regional advertising funds and a floorplan account equal to 45 days of wholesale interest. That's a bunch of $.

And sales regions often have secret incentives that go up and down according to how well a certain vehicle is selling. If inventories are up on a Honda Pilot and they're on Wednesday at the end of June, the region may throw a bounty on all Pilots sold. And this can be a substantial amount.

Don't forget that ripoff of all charges--Documentary Fees. When I was looking at SUV's recently, the dealers online were quoting prices, etc. and a doc fee was added that's straight profit--$499-699.

I don't think this ole country boy's going to fall for that.

And don't think that any dealer's going to consistently lose $600 on any vehicle sold online. If that's the case, they'd close down their internet sales department.

New car dealers are sly, like a fox, and the odds are stacked that retail customers are not going to beat them at their own game.
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:16 PM   #50
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Don't believe it. The factory invoice may be padded for 2-3% dealer holdbacks, regional advertising funds and a floorplan account equal to 45 days of wholesale interest. That's a bunch of $.

And sales regions often have secret incentives that go up and down according to how well a certain vehicle is selling. If inventories are up on a Honda Pilot and they're on Wednesday at the end of June, the region may throw a bounty on all Pilots sold. And this can be a substantial amount.

Don't forget that ripoff of all charges--Documentary Fees. When I was looking at SUV's recently, the dealers online were quoting prices, etc. and a doc fee was added that's straight profit--$499-699.

I don't think this ole country boy's going to fall for that.

And don't think that any dealer's going to consistently lose $600 on any vehicle sold online. If that's the case, they'd close down their internet sales department.

New car dealers are sly, like a fox, and the odds are stacked that retail customers are not going to beat them at their own game.
and to top it off the reg ol sales guy has NO CLUE as to the dealers true cost in new vehicle inventory...they are only told what the need to know to be motivated to WORK....sure they can pull you "dealer invoice" and tell you of available "incentives"...but even the true dirty numbers elude the sales managers usually...its an business machine for sure!

I never go in with the intent to beat the dealer at their own game.....you cant beat them, but you CAN come to a number you BOTH don't like...LOL
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Old 08-03-2014, 05:30 PM   #51
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You hit it on the nail. The 40% of gross profit sales commission is not paid on the documentary fee and all of the under the table incentives and pad on the invoice.

The salesman is a victim in a manner of speaking. He doesn't know what a vehicle actually costs.

There are very few dealerships that I would want to be a career car salesman in at this day and time. And the standards for sales professionals has dropped dramatically since I went into the car business in 1972.
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:33 AM   #52
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I 'get ya' but get used to it. I doubt you can buy a car/truck without ps/pb/pw/pl. Power seats are common as well.

Backup cameras will be in ALL vehicles in 2 years (federal mandate, like rear window defoggers were 20 years ago). TPS is mandatory in most everything now too.

My 14 subaru and 13 silverado both have backup cameras, bluetooth, satellite radio and I love it.
I wanted the 'eyesight' auto braking on the subaru but it was another $5k (needed the next model up plus the option). My kids will be driving in 3 years and when I go to sell this car in 10 years that will be a common feature leaving my car 'technologically behind' by then.

What I like is the truck and car are easy to drive - I had a chrysler minivan rental and took it back for ANYTHING else - I couldn't operate half the stuff without reading the manual first. IMO that's not safe.

I wish my car had auto temp air like the truck though. And heated seats rock (up here where winter is real)
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Well said. I totally agree that is the way it is. I just do not like it.

I feel like the oddball fish in all this because I will not buy it, but if everyone else is buying it and causing the price to rise then I really have little choice. I like the KISS theory. And the more bells and whistles they put in a car the more crap can just break. I must be getting too old. All these kids want Bluetooth, satellite radio, GPS, on-star, back up cameras, anti collision, anti roll over, self parking, TV monitors through out, etc. I really do not want this stuff. But like you said, everyone else does and the makers will produce what people want. So I go looking for a car and it will have all this stuff in it because someone else wanted it. To me it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Boy do I sound grumpy.

Vin.
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:03 AM   #53
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Well said. I totally agree that is the way it is. I just do not like it.

I feel like the oddball fish in all this because I will not buy it, but if everyone else is buying it and causing the price to rise then I really have little choice. I like the KISS theory. And the more bells and whistles they put in a car the more crap can just break. I must be getting too old. All these kids want Bluetooth, satellite radio, GPS, on-star, back up cameras, anti collision, anti roll over, self parking, TV monitors through out, etc. I really do not want this stuff. But like you said, everyone else does and the makers will produce what people want. So I go looking for a car and it will have all this stuff in it because someone else wanted it. To me it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Boy do I sound grumpy.

Vin.
I used to think like you, first brand new truck I bought was a Chevrolet Scottsdale. 5.7L, 5 speed manual, cloth bench seat, rubber floors (no carpet), no A/C, no PL or PW. It did have delay wipers, no cruise control. Great truck, trouble was when Time came to sell it, no one wanted it. Dealer friend of mine said something I never forgot "One bought right, is half sold!"

In other words, you may not find those features value added, but when the time comes to sell it, it is a different story.

Having said all that, my current truck has 300,000 miles on it and I have no plans to sell it.
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:21 AM   #54
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Yep, you have to think of a couple things and initial price isn't in the top two. A better equipped vehicle is easier to sell and worth more in the end. And a better equipped vehicle is 'easier' to live with -power windows, cruise, etc are things you prolly use every day.
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:51 AM   #55
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Resale value doesn't matter to someone like me. By the time I replace a vehicle it is worth less than $1000.

Vehicles having more than the buyer wants isn't new. I've gone through this every time I bought a new vehicle. In the early 90's trying to get a 4x4 SUV off the lot with manual hubs, vinyl seats and floors, etc was impossible in my area. The dealers didn't grasp why I didn't want power every thing with nice cloth seats and floor carpeting. They tried telling me with manual hubs I would get wet if I got stuck and needed four wheel drive. No matter how much I explained that you didn't wait until you were 20 miles into the national forest to set four wheel and vinyl can be hosed out after getting unstuck they insisted I needed all the extra's. I finally gave up and used my companies fleet sales to order what I wanted. I probably didn't get as good of a deal as I could have buying off the lot but it was the only way to get what I wanted.

Generally the dealers order what they think the majority of walk ins will buy. They might keep a couple of basic models to use as sales teasers or to keep someone from walking out but that is not where their money is made. You will also find many of the options are pushed by the factory so they too can maximize their return. The way I look at unwanted options today is as bargaining chips. I make it clear I really don't care that it has that and if I can get a better deal at another dealer or brand that doesn't have the options I will take it. Usually the dealer tends to find more wiggle room on the price after this.
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:15 PM   #56
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What does Clark Howard know about tow trucks? He used to drive a Honda Insight hybrid.

On weekends, he's at Goodwill trying to find good recycled clothes.

On weekends, I'm at my camper up in the North Georgia mountains communing with nature.

Modern diesel tow trucks are very expensive. But with a lifespan of 400,000 miles, they are actually a good buy in long term transportation. You do have to get over the mentality that you've got to trade every 3 years, however.


I'll try to leave your obvious dislike and unnecessary derogatory comments towards the guy alone...I'm not even sure it was him where I heard the conversation (remember my question mark next to his name?), but you certainly don't need to own a modern diesel truck to understand what they cost. I personally agree (with whoever it was) that the market can not continue to support the prices increasing at the rate they have been.

Your comment "But with a lifespan of 400,000 miles" however, is kool-aid I don't drink. It doesn't matter which flavor of truck you choose these days...they all have their common failures. I'm not trying to say I think they're junk, I'm just saying that on average, they dont last any longer than any Toyota, Honda, etc. (which also have their own common failures).

In my opinion, anybody with the mentality that a new car every 3 years is required has little to no concern over the cost of owning said vehicles anyway.
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:57 PM   #57
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When I bought my 2013 Ford F150 stx, the dealer tried to talk me into a 4x4 lariat. About $20,000 more. My STX will take me anywhere I want to go and left me more money for the new RV. We walked out of the dealership because we were $2,600 apart on the deal. They called two hours later and matched my offer. Makes me wonder how many take that offer on the table like the guy in the ripped pants Toyota commercial.
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Old 08-04-2014, 01:13 PM   #58
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When I bought my 2013 Ford F150 stx, the dealer tried to talk me into a 4x4 lariat. About $20,000 more. My STX will take me anywhere I want to go and left me more money for the new RV. We walked out of the dealership because we were $2,600 apart on the deal. They called two hours later and matched my offer. Makes me wonder how many take that offer on the table like the guy in the ripped pants Toyota commercial.
Even after we agree on a price I tell the salesman I want to think on it overnight and will be back tomorrow to finalize the deal. Sometimes it's helped get a bit more off other times we return the next day for the same price. To me being patient and making sure the dealer realizes I don't care that I buy that specific vehicle has always worked well on getting a price I can live with.
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Old 08-04-2014, 01:20 PM   #59
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Made a decision on the last one I bought to keep for ever if not a lemon or something happen that destroyed it because of cost to buy another new one so far had almost 14 years and going strong. Will fix or rebuild as needed at this point cheaper than getting a new one. Preventative maintenance, Preventative maintenance, Preventative maintinance....
I hear ya... my "old" 2001 still does everything i need on it and when something breaks, it gets fixed and when maintenance comes up, I take care of it. When it was new, it was loaded and had all the bells and whistles, but nothing compared to today.

As for the toys/junk, I have Nav and Bluetooth and a back up camera. the factory CD player (unnecessary junk in 2001 by some peoples terms) quit, so I upgraded with a new in-dash nav with BT and BU cam and new speakers and an amp all for far less than 2 payments on a new truck.

The Alternator went out a few weeks ago on a trip... had it towed (I have road side assistance since I have an older vehicle) and a new alt installed.. $300. A new Transmission a few years back.. $4000 for a Ford HD rebuild (not the standard rebuild) with 3 year unlimited mile warranty.. this one stung a bit, but still, that's been the only big repair.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:38 PM   #60
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At 62... I'm hoping I never buy another vehicle... With that thought, I bought what I wanted this time. It was more expensive than I hoped it would be. My last company vehicle has 350K miles on it and is still being driven... and has had very few problems. When I last heard about it (last week) it still has the original hoses and water pump. It was an '02 F-150 7700 Supercab 4X4. It was driven many miles down railroad right of ways, up to mountain-top radio sites, etc.

They will last when they are maintained... I hope to get at least 300K outa my new one.
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