Dry weight or GVWR

Swaggler · 07-31-2012, 09:59 PM

I'm new to the forum and would appreciate advice on finding the right TT for my TV. I noticed most refer to GVWR, not Dry Weight, when discussing towing capacity. Is this because the Dry Weights posted on the TT spec sheets are not accurate? The dealers I've talked to always refer to the dry weight on the door sticker.

Dave_Monica · 07-31-2012, 10:07 PM

Yes,factory dry weights aren't terribly accurate but, other than dragging it home from the dealer, it'll never empty.

The camper's GVWR number is the best number to use to determine if it fits within your TV's capacity. You'll probably never load it to capacity, but that'll give you some cushion.

Dave

bakken · 07-31-2012, 11:13 PM

Actually, the GVWR numbers can be misleading. I have seen two very similar fifth wheels, with very similar dry weights, but with vastly different GVWRs. The reason? The axles. The "lighter" trailer had 4000 lb axles, the other 5000 lbs.
As it would be almost impossible to pack an extra 2000 lbs of gear into the camper, the GVWR on the "heavier" trailer is misleading.
The dry weights are not that far off, so is a good starting point. If you are going to carry a full tank of water, add that weight, plus about 1000 lbs for gear, and maybe 500 lbs for stuff in the truck box. That should get you in the ballpark, but everyone's situation is different.

**Terier** · 08-01-2012, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakken

Actually, the GVWR numbers can be misleading. I have seen two very similar fifth wheels, with very similar dry weights, but with vastly different GVWRs. The reason? The axles. The "lighter" trailer had 4000 lb axles, the other 5000 lbs.
As it would be almost impossible to pack an extra 2000 lbs of gear into the camper, the GVWR on the "heavier" trailer is misleading.
The dry weights are not that far off, so is a good starting point. If you are going to carry a full tank of water, add that weight, plus about 1000 lbs for gear, and maybe 500 lbs for stuff in the truck box. That should get you in the ballpark, but everyone's situation is different.

Not sure if I am following your example. To me the GVWR is a weight limit, regardless if I stock it to the max or not. Are you thinking with reasonable stocking the GVWR will not come into play?

**bikendan** · 08-01-2012, 01:39 AM

the term "dry" weight has two meanings. one is the "dry" weight posted on websites and in brochures. this is, generally, the weight of a stripped-down version of the RV.

then there's the factory "dry" weight, also referred to as UVW or unloaded vehicle weight. this is the actual weight of the RV when it leaves the factory for the dealer. this is the weight on the outside yellow sticker. on older RVs, it's on a white sticker inside the RV, usually on the inside of a cabinet door.
this UVW is the best number to work with. it gives you the weight, with options included and factors in the weight of propane.

GVWR is usually a good rule of thumb to use, except for some RVs that have tremendous cargo capacities, that no one would ever reach.
GVWR is the best to go by if you don't have the ability to actually look at the yellow sticker.

**Herk7769** · 08-01-2012, 05:50 AM

In my opinion, if you plan for worst case you will never be "unsafe."

If you find yourself with a few hundred pounds of excess capacity you will find your camper and tow vehicle will last longer.

If you plan for a minimalist camping experience you will be kicking yourself for doing so; you will reduce the useful life of your camper and tow vehicle; and you won't be able to take your friends and their gear along when you want to.

boubou · 08-01-2012, 05:59 AM

Dry weight on brochure often means TT will be 1000 lbs extra when you pack it and weight it for the first time. Even when you pack really light. A lot nicer just packing TT not having to worry about every item you add also add extra weight.

bakken · 08-01-2012, 07:18 AM

My fifth has a GVWR that is 2000 lbs above my sticker dry weight, so I doubt I will ever overload it. I have seen a similar fifth with a GVWR that is almost 4000 lbs above its dry weight. How on earth could one ever load 4000 lbs of stuff into their camper, even if every tank was right full?
That is why GVWR can be misleading.

**Herk7769** · 08-01-2012, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakken

My fifth has a GVWR that is 2000 lbs above my sticker dry weight, so I doubt I will ever overload it. I have seen a similar fifth with a GVWR that is almost 4000 lbs above its dry weight. How on earth could one ever load 4000 lbs of stuff into their camper, even if every tank was right full?
That is why GVWR can be misleading.

The only campers I am familiar with that have that kind of spread are toy haulers. That allows you to put your Quad or several motorcycles in the back.

Perhaps you can be more specific.

bakken · 08-01-2012, 07:49 AM

I was looking at Sabres, and the 281RLDS is a good example, 8005 lb dry weight but a GVWR of 12,204 lbs. And it ain't no toy hauler.

dogwood36322 · 08-01-2012, 08:00 AM

I agree with Herk. Always plan using the GVWR and you will have enough tow vehicle. You may not get to the GVWR but you will be a lot happier. It is always better to have more towing capacity than needed. I see to many single wheel trucks pulling large fivers that are sagging and have to be terrible in traffic when big rigs pass you. And yes similar trailers may have different GVWR due to the size of the axles and tire ratings.

**Herk7769** · 08-01-2012, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bakken

I was looking at Sabres, and the 281RLDS is a good example, 8005 lb dry weight but a GVWR of 12,204 lbs. And it ain't no toy hauler.

You are right.

Sabre Silhouette 281RLDS Fifth Wheel | RV Wholesale Superstore, LLC.

The dry weight is without factory installed options.
The Unloaded Vehicle Weight (off the yellow sticker) is the "As Built" weight and can be anywhere from a few hundred pounds to quite a few hundred pounds heavier than dry weight.

I would love to see an example of an actual "delivered" weight on that unit.

My guess is that camper's UVW with that floor plan was too much for the lower rated axles (or frame) normally used for that class of trailer and upgraded axles (or frame) were required (thus giving it the higher GVWR).

Manufacturers are REALLY cost conscious and would never give you more capacity than absolutely necessary. That is a 2013; I wonder if the Lippert frame issues had any impact on the decision to up-gun the frame? Just sayin'

Triguy · 08-01-2012, 08:10 AM

OP,
The bottom line for me is:

Use the GVWR to supply a cushion if you are new to the RV world. As Lou, said, if you find yourself with a few hundred pounds of excess capacity you will find your camper and tow vehicle will last longer. It will also make for a more comfortable towing experience.

If you know how much you camp with, then feel free to estimate using the trailer's dry weight and adding up all of the additional weight that will be used in the trailer (cargo, water, propane, batteries, mods, etc).

Either way, its important to plan on a margin of safety so that you do not come right up to the limits of your tow vehicle.

bakken · 08-01-2012, 08:19 AM

Herk, all of the Sabres had heavier axles, just a better-built camper all around. If they had the exact floor plan I wanted, I would have bought one. But we are very happy with our Flagstaff just the same.

**RV Guy** · 08-01-2012, 08:56 AM

You are getting alot of great advice, but I will throw in some extra food for thought. To make a decision based primarily on the GVWR is short-sighted. You need to consider the GVWR, Carrying Capacity, and Dry Weight (or UVW).

Here's a common "perception" conversation that we have with customers all the time:

Manufacturer A builds a unit that weighs 5000 pounds total with a 500 pound hitch weight rolling out the door. Manufacturer B builds the EXACT SAME UNIT and it weighs 5000 pounds total with a 500 pound hitch weight rolling out the door, too.

If Manufacturer A wants to cut corners, he can put 2800# Axles with 14" tires on this unit - smaller brakes, smaller leaf springs, etc. - a clearly inferior unit. The GVWR of this unit will then be 2800 (axle) + 2800 (axle) + 500 (hitch) = 6100 lbs. This unit has a Carrying Capacity (GVWR-DRY) of 1,100# (6100-5000).

If Manufacturer B wants to upgrade the build on his unit, he will put 3500# Axles with 15" tires on it. The GVWR will then be 3500 + 3500 + 500 = 7500 lbs. This unit has a Carrying Capacity of 2500# (7500-5000).

So what we have is the exact same unit with vastly different GVWR and Carrying Capacity driven by better axles and tires.

Now Mr. Customer with a 7000# tow capacity starts considering which of these units to buy. By looking ONLY at the GVWR, he would be inclined to buy the one with cheap axles and tires because the lower GVWR is less than his tow capacity and it offers him a "cushion" under his tow capacity.

In reality, his ability to tow each of these units is exactly the same regardless of the GVWR. The only difference is the customer now COULD CHOOSE to LOAD the higher GVWR unit past his tow capacity. This is customer's choice, though. Just because you have a higher Carrying Capacity that comes with upgraded axles doesn't mean you have to use it! If you MAX LOADED unit A with 1100# of Cargo it would weigh 6100# and be totally maxed out. If you put 1100# of Cargo in unit B, it would weigh 6100#, too, but fall well under your total capacity.

We believe the dry weight is the single most important factor to consider. How much weight you LOAD into your unit is the next most important. You can not LOAD beyond your Carrying Capacity and you need to allow yourself the "cushion" amount under your TV's tow capacity that makes you feel comfortable depending on your situation.

Do not automatically exclude a better built unit because of a higher GVWR. There just might be more issues in play.

Best of luck.

PTM

bakken · 08-01-2012, 08:58 AM

RV Guy, that is what I was trying to say, but you did a much better job!

**RV Guy** · 08-01-2012, 09:01 AM

Had some down time between meetings

Swaggler · 08-01-2012, 07:22 PM

Thanks for all the input Everyone. I think I understand the differences now between the Dry wt, UVW, and GVWR. I feel a lot more confident that I can choose a model my TV can handle.

While we're on the subject of weight...anyone know how much a 20# propane tank weighs when full?...

MtnGuy · 08-01-2012, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swaggler

While we're on the subject of weight...anyone know how much a 20# propane tank weighs when full?...

My 30 lb. tanks weigh 54 lbs (24 lbs. empty + 30 lbs. of propane). I would think that a 20 lb. tank should weigh around 38 lbs. or so.

**Herk7769** · 08-01-2012, 08:29 PM

RV Guy,

I have to say I read your post three times and I still don't agree with your logic. This is not to say you are wrong. Obviously you have a great deal of knowledge on the subject.

Yet, I just don't get why MFR A would use the correct axles and tires for the camper and MFR B would build an identical camper with an identical frame; yet just because they upgrade the axles and tires claim they have a higher GVWR and "better" unit. Unless they plan on selling that unit for a lot more money based on the "marketing fib" that it is "better built" as it has a higher GVWR based solely on the axles and tires.

Did I get that right?

I think we will just agree to disagree here and let it go at that.

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