F450 vs F350

[doc73]

Originally Posted by Cypressloser

Doc73 and DieselDrax, it looks like you guys have more up to date numbers than I do.

No, he might be right. I am looking at the cut away versions when I see them on the road in a commercial capacity. 14500 for the 350, 16500 for 450 and 19500 for the 550 all duelly.

[LegacyFB38]

With respect to 2017+ F350/F450 Super Duty 4x4:

F450 Rear axle has slightly bigger shaft, bigger brakes, wider front axle (tighter turning radius), commercial tires (better in Florida heat?). Lower payload on paper to stay within truck class...in reality the F450 is every bit the truck of a F350. F450 does not have TPMS for truck, but trailer TPMS is available. I believe the frames are the same (F450 chassis/cab frame is different). The shocks and spring very close, if not identical. F450 steeper differential gearing with 19.5" tires likely very close overall to F350 with 17" tires. GVWR is 14,000#.

Biased opinion of armchair expert: OP's trailer weight is in dually territory. His possible future trailer weight is CLEARLY in dually territory. 2-wheel drive may be a better option for OP. Get a F450! If for no other reason than turning radius.

[koller1509]

[QUOTE=DieselDrax;1784712]Indeed, also depending on state you may need a CDL and DOT/MC numbers due to the GVWR/GCWR.


No states I know require a CDL for personal use, now some states have class A and B non-commercial license when you exceed 26,000 pounds. In PA I do have to declare that I only use the truck for personal use when I renew my registration.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by koller1509

No states I know require a CDL for personal use, now some states have class A and B non-commercial license when you exceed 26,000 pounds.

When the trailer is hitched up that is true, the problem is once you disconnect the TT/5er from the truck it is no longer an RV and you/it are subject to whatever the commercial vehicle weights/requirements are for your state.

[dinkhauler]

I own a 2014 F350 SRW 4x4 diesel and pull a 15k FW. For me it would be no question if I were full timing to go to the F450. The increased capabilities, safety, and stability would far outweigh any negligible difference in mpg.

[aknavy]

Originally Posted by Cypressloser

Why not check out the new RAM trucks?

I'm interested in them, but right now I'm dealing with a Ford dealer that has failed repairing an initial issue, caused damage to the truck, and significant loss of use and still hasn't fixed the issue, and I'm patiently going thru the process of getting a new truck with them. If that falls thru, then I'll be filing multiple complaints the the AG office - one for Lemon Law, one for shoddy workmanship. Truck has been solid mechanically, but an initial corrosion issue coupled with a water leak has dragged on for over a year.

[doc73]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

When the trailer is hitched up that is true, the problem is once you disconnect the TT/5er from the truck it is no longer an RV and you/it are subject to whatever the commercial vehicle weights/requirements are for your state.

That's not true in any state that I've heard of. Unless he's a commercial vehicle conducting business even a 450 owned by a person is not considered a commercial vehicle. That does not mean the state may not look at it registration wise as a commercial vehicle but he does not need to follow the federal commercial motor vehicle regulations. Or at least as they are intended by the feds. But again that's assuming that the state does not make up its own rules. In Pennsylvania he would be a private vehicle if he's not any commercial business with the vehicle.

[koller1509]

Originally Posted by doc73

That's not true in any state that I've heard of. Unless he's a commercial vehicle conducting business even a 450 owned by a person is not considered a commercial vehicle. That does not mean the state may not look at it registration wise as a commercial vehicle but he does not need to follow the federal commercial motor vehicle regulations. Or at least as they are intended by the feds. But again that's assuming that the state does not make up its own rules. In Pennsylvania he would be a private vehicle if he's not any commercial business with the vehicle.

X2

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by doc73

That's not true in any state that I've heard of. Unless he's a commercial vehicle conducting business even a 450 owned by a person is not considered a commercial vehicle. That does not mean the state may not look at it registration wise as a commercial vehicle but he does not need to follow the federal commercial motor vehicle regulations. Or at least as they are intended by the feds. But again that's assuming that the state does not make up its own rules. In Pennsylvania he would be a private vehicle if he's not any commercial business with the vehicle.

It was true in California until 2016 (We left CA in 2015, yay!). From the CA DMV (includes effective date):

Who does not need an MCP?
...
Motor trucks or two-axle truck tractors, with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds, when operated singly, or when used to tow a camp or utility trailer, a trailer coach, a fifth-wheel travel trailer, or a trailer designed to transport a watercraft, and is never operated commercially. (This provision becomes operative on January 1, 2016.)

Prior to 2016 an MC# was needed in California for any pickup with a GVWR > 11,500lb. Not sure if any other state is/was similar, but it was that way before we moved away.

Most drivers will also need a non-commercial "Class A" (or their state's equivalent) license due to the GCWR being > 26,000lb. Some states, like CA, also require non-commercial class A licenses for bumper-tow trailers with a GVWR > 10,000lb and 5th wheel trailers with a GVWR > 15,000lb.

PA has similar requirements...

CLASS A (minimum age 18): Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example: Recreational Vehicle, when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at 15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds).

Being an RV doesn't get you off the hook for everything.

[Jmkjr72]

Originally Posted by Brendon37

Actually they have the same axles.

They may use the same axel housings but the actual axel shafts are diffrent the 300 in the f450 runs a larger dia axel with more splines and a different carrier for the diffrent gearing because of the larger diva axles the bearings and seals are diffrent also

[Cabinfever97]

Originally Posted by doc73

That's not true in any state that I've heard of. Unless he's a commercial vehicle conducting business even a 450 owned by a person is not considered a commercial vehicle. That does not mean the state may not look at it registration wise as a commercial vehicle but he does not need to follow the federal commercial motor vehicle regulations. Or at least as they are intended by the feds. But again that's assuming that the state does not make up its own rules. In Pennsylvania he would be a private vehicle if he's not any commercial business with the vehicle.

Besides Doc I have spoken to other experts in PA and they concur with Docs statement. If you are not engaged in any form of commerce you are a private vehicle. Remember if you pull a race car, horse, or any other type of trailer and are earning prize money you are engaging in commerce. If you use your truck in any way to earn money you are engaging in commerce. Doesn't matter that you consider it a hobby or file taxes as a hobby. Simply put if you receive money in any way connected to something with wheels above the appropriate weights, you are engaging in commerce then need to follow your states DOT regs.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Cabinfever97

Besides Doc I have spoken to other experts in PA and they concur with Docs statement. If you are not engaged in any form of commerce you are a private vehicle. Remember if you pull a race car, horse, or any other type of trailer and are earning prize money you are engaging in commerce. If you use your truck in any way to earn money you are engaging in commerce. Doesn't matter that you consider it a hobby or file taxes as a hobby. Simply put if you receive money in any way connected to something with wheels above the appropriate weights, you are engaging in commerce then need to follow your states DOT regs.

As I posted above, that doesn’t mean you don’t need a different non-commercial license due to weight.

[Cabinfever97]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

As I posted above, that doesn’t mean you don’t need a different non-commercial license due to weight.

Every state has its own funhouse of regulations to go through so I am sure your are 100% correct.

[DieselDrax]

Originally Posted by Cabinfever97

Every state has its own funhouse of regulations to go through so I am sure your are 100% correct.

Agreed on the craziness, I’m sure I’m not 100% correct but I just know a lot of folks just aren’t aware of the extra hoops needed to jump through in some states when they upgrade to really large trailers. My goal was just to shed some light on some areas people may not think about.

[doc73]

Originally Posted by DieselDrax

It was true in California until 2016 (We left CA in 2015, yay!). From the CA DMV (includes effective date):



Prior to 2016 an MC# was needed in California for any pickup with a GVWR > 11,500lb. Not sure if any other state is/was similar, but it was that way before we moved away.

Most drivers will also need a non-commercial "Class A" (or their state's equivalent) license due to the GCWR being > 26,000lb. Some states, like CA, also require non-commercial class A licenses for bumper-tow trailers with a GVWR > 10,000lb and 5th wheel trailers with a GVWR > 15,000lb.

PA has similar requirements...



Being an RV doesn't get you off the hook for everything.

A motor carrier #, my guess is the CA version of a DOT #. PA used to have their own version (PA PUC #)as well until they moved to the US DOT# but that does not mean the US DOT regs would apply, they are by statute for commercial or Motor Carrier Vehicles (which need to be engaged in commerce). While they are free to get I do not know if they would even assign one too you with no signs of being a business. They are well into the 3 millions right now due to the fly by night company's who set them up to run drugs from Mx.

As for the license you are correct when hooked up if you were at 26001 lbs or more you would need a non-commercial class A or B depending on whether the trailer was over 10,ooolbs. When not hooked up your normal license would be fine.

[doc73]

Originally Posted by Cabinfever97

Besides Doc I have spoken to other experts in PA and they concur with Docs statement. If you are not engaged in any form of commerce you are a private vehicle. Remember if you pull a race car, horse, or any other type of trailer and are earning prize money you are engaging in commerce. If you use your truck in any way to earn money you are engaging in commerce. Doesn't matter that you consider it a hobby or file taxes as a hobby. Simply put if you receive money in any way connected to something with wheels above the appropriate weights, you are engaging in commerce then need to follow your states DOT regs.

Yep we will run into people often with horse trailers and amateur race car drivers who are not in compliance with the US DOT regs. We also get a lot of the pipe line guys who get jammed up.

The other thing, which they actually talked about at updates, are the RVs setup under LLCs in MT and the similar... They are motor carriers AKA commercial vehicles due to being registered to a business. SO CDL required if over 26,001 and a medical card if over 10k lbs.

[18CrewDually]

Originally Posted by doc73

As for the license you are correct when hooked up if you were at 26001 lbs or more you would need a non-commercial class A or B depending on whether the trailer was over 10,ooolbs. When not hooked up your normal license would be fine.

I've recently seen alot of talk about this. Many Pennsylvanians don't want to believe it but it does exist. I believe Allentown has a test facility.
This is one case I can say I'm glad to live in New Je.......... um, some other state. [emoji87]

[Iwannacamp]

We have a 2008 f450 at work. It is a work truck. It rides pretty good with couple thousand on the back. Without? Your behind will leave the seat on a moderate bump.

Some 1T trucks have in excess of 5000# of cargo.

In Arkansas the f350 tags are about $100 annually. Can’t help you on the 450 ours has yellow and DOT numbers on it.

[doc73]

Originally Posted by 05CrewDually

I've recently seen alot of talk about this. Many Pennsylvanians don't want to believe it but it does exist. I believe Allentown has a test facility.
This is one case I can say I'm glad to live in New Je.......... um, some other state. [emoji87]

Yeah most license centers do not even know if it exists... Even penndots web page is hard to find information on it.

[mwdilday]

I have a 2017 F-350 DRW Crew Cab with the 3.73 rear end towing a 18,000 lb 5th wheel and it is a beast. My truck is rated for 31,300 lb 5th wheel. The F-450 is only 32,500. Really no difference. Not many 31,000 lb 5th wheel RVs out there.