Finally went to scales!!

[quick83]

Prob not matter to much because i supplied all the weight info but my truck is a 2008 F250 diesel supercab longbed. can "TOW" 15,800 lbs. Here is all the info.

TRUCK/RV WEIGHT FACTS AND FIGURES : TRUCK WAS FULLY LOADED WITH FUEL AND PASSENGERS. ALL NUMBERS CAME FROM INFO ON TRUCK PLAQARDS AND INFORMATION FROM WEIGHT SCALE RESULTS.

TRUCK: TIRES: LT275/65R18….RANGE E/TIRE AND LOADING INFO SAYS COMBINED WEIGHT OF OCCUPANTS AND CARGO NOT EXCEED 2269. THE GCWR IS 23,500 ON MY TRUCK. PER ORIGINAL ADVERSISEMENT BROCHURE.

OFF DOOR PLAQUARD: FRONT GAWR: 5,250 REAR GAWR: 6,100 GVWR: 10,000

SCALE INFO: TRUCK ONLY-NO RV: FRONT: 4,780 REAR:3,640 TOTAL: 8420

TRUCK WITH RV: FRONT AXLE WEIGHT: 4,900 REAR AXLE WEIGHT: 5,980
COMBINED WEIGHT OF TRUCK WITH RV ATTACHED IS 10,880.

RV: WITH BOTH AXLES ON SCALE: 11,600 WHILE HOOKED UP TO TRUCK.
TOTAL COMBINED WEIGHT OF TRUCK AND RIG: 22,500 ALLOWED 23,500

PIN WEIGHT= REAR AXLE WEIGHT WITH RV MINUS AXLE WT OF TRUCK WITHOUT RV.= 5,980-3640=2,340. ALLOWED 6100 REAR GAWR. REAR WEIGHT LOADED WITH RV IS 5,980. 6100-5,980=STILL CAN ADD 120 LBS TO BED OR INCREASE PIN WEIGHT 500LBS. (25%OF 500=120.)

QUESTIONS:AM I OVER MY GCVR BY 880 BECAUSE CGVR IS 10,000.
ARE MY FIGURES CORRECT FOR THE PIN WEIGHT?
ARE MY TIRES LIMITING ME WITH THAT 2,269 TOTAL VECH ADDED WEIGHT?

[ependydad]

I think your underestimating your pin weight. It's putting weight onto both axles and that needs to be accounted for:

10,880 - 8,420 = 2,460 lbs.

[quick83]

OK WITH FRONT GAWR ALLOWED OF 5,250 AND LOADED WEIGHT OF 4,900 doesn't that mean im under the front GAWR by 350 lbs? why do you think this under estimates pin weight? thanks for your help.

[BigBaron]

It's amazing how close to the limits you are!
I don't have a fiver, but the numbers look good to me.

[Herk7769]

So, the way to find your true pin weight is to subtract the unloaded truck axle "sums" from the loaded truck axle "sums"

Truck Only - 8420
Truck + Camper (truck axles) - 10,880 pounds

True pin weight 10,880 - 8420 = 2460 pounds

True weight of camper = camper axles plus pin weight

2460 + 11,600 = 14060

Ratio of camper weight to pin weight must fall within 15% - 25% of total weight

2460/14060 = 16.9% so you are "light on the pin" but in the safe zone of 2190 to 3650 pounds

As you stated your GCWR is 23,500
You are under your GCWR by just 480 pounds (8420 + 14060 = 23020)

Your truck's GVWR is 10,000
You are over by 880 pounds

Your trucks tires must be rated for 1/2 the gross rear axle weight (for single wheel) or 1/4 Gross axle weight for dually).

Your rear axle loaded weighs ~6,000 pounds (of your 6100 available)

That puts 3000 pounds on each tire (of an SRW truck).

What make is your tire? If they are Goodyear those tires are rated at 3,415 @ 80 PSI so your tires are not your GVWR limiting factor.

(it is normally your frame design that limits the GVWR of your truck).

[quick83]

thank you for such a detailed answer, that is what i was hoping for.really,,, thank you very much! I have contenental tires. do you know the numbers for them? On the GCWR, am i wrong or do you add 14,060 and 8,420 to get the GCWR, which is 22,480? 1,020 under my GCWR...right? what i find reassuring is the ONLY way I could have been well over the limits i have now is with a dually and no way i could ever afford that. i could have ordered a 350 for 80.00 more with different springs in back(that was the only difference) and the CGWR is the same for a 250 and 350. I probebly should have not gotten such a large rv but i have what i have but want to know how much over i am and where im over. I never drive over 55-60 mph and try to allways keep my distance, but of course ther is always a butt hole that cuts you off. thanks again and any other help is apprechiated.

[BigBaron]

@quick83 - you can install the extra spring and the 4" spacer that comes on the 350 and have the same capability. I asked a guy that is a diesel guru and he says that's it.
It looks like 80 p.s.i. for you from now on if your tires and rims are rated for it. Herk will know. (He knows everything! ) A TPMS is mandatory IMHO.
An aside-Since you are hauling such a load, have you done anything to your motor?
The silicate-based coolant from the factory clogs up the EGR system, and there are a couple other little tweaks that help immensely.

@Herk - is this a textbook example of why a DRW is the way to go for peace of mind?

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by BigBaron

@Herk - is this a textbook example of why a DRW is the way to go for peace of mind?

I can barely park my SRW and you want me to hit TWO cars at once?


Great catch. I "eyeballed" that addition. You are correct.

8420 (truck w/o camper) plus Camper (pin + axles) = CW of 22,480

Should have double checked that before I hit send. You have 1020 pounds of CW available, but you are already grossed out on your truck's payload.

Not sure what the GVWR of your camper is, but it needs to go on a diet.
Your CW will not be your limiting factor; your truck's available payload will be.

[quick83]

F350 and F250 have same GVWR of 10,000 lbs.PER Dealer brochure and same rear GAWR of 6100lbs, so add the springs/spacer to increase the pin weight? My truck PULLS this 5th wheel with ease up and down steep grades etc and stops very well. I have always kept my tires at 80 psi. The Engine is fine as is like i said above, more power is always a good thing with me but it really does pull fine as is. I will look into the info on the coolant. DRW was $7,000.00 more when i ordered my truck in 2008. could not afford. Thanks for all the info. Im not trying to convince myself im ok, just trying to be sure i can continue to use this truck safely and know its true limits. I can not afford to get a new truck so i am stuck with my combination for now. I will add additional springs to increase my GVRW or GAWR if it really will help. But I believe they will not. Please continue to give me any info you think will help.

[quick83]

Herk, even if i took out 1000 lbs from the front of rv, that will only decrease the pin weight by 15-25% of that. what 250-300 lbs? still 500 over GVWR. I would have to empty out the truck(200-300 lb in bed)hmm thats another 250 ...thats around 500-700 out,,,still over. (never find 1000 to get out of rv), we do not have that much in there....THE RV is just heavy!! so i WILL move all i can to the back of rv and take out all i can out of truck bed . It looks like the rv axles can handle it and the truck can pull the weight. I still have another 1000 lbs i can add to the rv weight it just needs to be off the pin, I will prob be able to get the gross vech weight to around 500 over and that will be as good as it gets. So what prob can i have 500 over GVWR? the rear axle should be ok-im in specs on that. Im towing less than im rated for, the rv axles are rated at 7000lbs so the weight in the rv will be ok. What will i be stessing with an 500lb over on the GVWR? the frame? Braking? Thanks for all your help and answers.

[Herk7769]

Be careful trying to relocate too much weight to reduce your pin load.
Any pin load less than 15% will yield handling issues that may very well cause the accident you are trying to avoid. While 5th wheels "don't sway," they are talking about a properly loaded one. Too light a pin will cause excessive bounce, sway, and insufficient traction that can cause loss of control.

So, here is the thing. Does being over-gross by 1000 pounds mean you will crash the first time out? Of course not.

Does it mean the first pothole you hit will buckle the frame? No again.

What it does mean is that over time, you will stress the components of your tow vehicle beyond their design limit and eventually cause a shorter useful life than designed.

The problem of course is knowing when that might be. You really have no way of knowing. You most likely will sell "Old Chuck" before you break it.

Unless the guy you sell it to tows, he might get many more years out of that old truck. At least you can rationalize it that way.

What is factual is that at some unknown time in the future, that limiting component will fail due to accumulated stress, quicker than it would if you stayed within the factory's (or lawyer's if you prefer) limits.

Additionally, should you be involved in a serious or fatal accident that gets the "full treatment" by the crash investigators, you may find yourself on the short end of the stick should they determine your knowingly over loaded combination contributed to the fatality.

Your insurance company may write you a check for your policy limit and walk away letting you find your own representation and struggle with the legal suits.

Many here will tell you not to worry, but they won't be writing you any checks to help with your legal bills or send you a file baked in a cake.

Remember that tow rating is ONLY based on the engine, transmission, and rear end ratio. Nothing else. The same truck model, whether an F-250, F-350, F-350 DRW, or F450 with the same engine, transmission and rear end ratio will have near identical tow ratings. BUT - Look at the payload variance. The bigger the truck series, the larger pin load it can manage within that towing capacity.

The difference is in how much of the towed weight can be borne by the towing vehicle. There is that awesome bit of Tundra PR where it "tows" the space shuttle. Note that NONE of the shuttles considerable weight is actually ON the truck. There is an Ironman stunt where a guy pulls an aircraft with his teeth. NONE of the aircraft's weight is on HIS back either.

FYI, due to the crap I keep in the truck (which includes my Yamaha 3000 generator, spare 20# propane tank, a 2.5 gallon gas can for the generator, and two spare 5 gallon diesel cans), my family and dog, the maximum remaining payload of my GMC 2500HD Duramax/Alison limits me to about a 9200 pound 5th wheel even though the "tow rating" is over 15,000 pounds.

I am looking at a heavier camper due to some medical issues that will require a LOT of "non-camping" cargo in the 5th wheel. The model I am looking at weighs in at 12,000 pounds maximum (well within my tow rating).

However, nearly everything I have been used to carrying in the truck (except for the DW and dog) has to go. Looking at an empty bed (except for hitch) and minimal stuff in the truck to get the remaining payload (even at minimum pin ratio) close to my truck's max GVWR of 9200 pounds. Will need to buy another generator (most likely a Honda 2000i) that will fit in the camper. The Yamaha will not work if I increase the camper weight.

(Oh,I would like a link to your "brochure" that says an F250 and an F350 have the same GVWR. Not saying that you are wrong, just I would like to know. Why would anyone buy an F350 if that was so?)

[BigBaron]

Here's the info from Ford.The SRW 250 and 350 GCWRs are the same.
2015 Ford Super Duty Towing Specifications
Engine with Automatic Transmission
6.2 L Gas V8
Axle Ratios GCVR
3.73 SRW 19,000
4.3 SRW 22,000
3.73 DRW 19,500
4.3 DRW 22,500
6.7L Power Stroke Turbo Diesel V8
Axle Ratios GCWR
3.31 SRW 23,500
3.55 SRW 23,500
3.73 DRW 31,900
4.3 DRW 450 40,000!

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by BigBaron

Here's the info from Ford.The SRW 250 and 350 GCWRs are the same.
2015 Ford Super Duty Towing Specifications
Engine with Automatic Transmission
6.2 L Gas V8
Axle Ratios GCVR
3.73 SRW 19,000
4.3 SRW 22,000
3.73 DRW 19,500
4.3 DRW 22,500
6.7L Power Stroke Turbo Diesel V8
Axle Ratios GCWR
3.31 SRW 23,500
3.55 SRW 23,500
3.73 DRW 31,900
4.3 DRW 450 40,000!

Yes, I understand the GCWR and Tow rating are the same (since they are based on drive train and not tow vehicle construction); the statement that the GVWR was the same threw me.

[cstover]

A F250 GVWR is maxed at 10000. A F350 SRW GVWR starts at 10000 and maxes at 11500 depending on trim and options. A F350 maxes at 14000 with the DRW.

[BigBaron]

"...the statement that the GVWR was the same threw me." It surprised me too!

[quick83]

Thanks for hanging in there with me on this. Looks like herk was correct.(of course). The 350 GVWR is 1,200 more in my same body style and options. The rear axle weight rate is the same on both. I know for a fact that the 350 option when i ordered my truck was just the addition of the badge, and the springs for 80.00 @ cost. so with that said I can add a spring to increase my GVWR knowing this will NOT increase my rear GAWR. right? Below will be a shot of the book if i get it to load.

[pwrstroke2012]

Very nice response Herk! No judging, just the facts! Kudos.

[quick83]

thats exactly what i wanted...no judgements just a good review of the info and give me anymore info i needed to make my own decision on what to do. No flames. I know many disagree with me towing 500-880 over my GVWR, at least i know know all my OTHER numbers are in the saftey specs. Again i wonder if more spring will help this.

[BigBaron]

Air bags couldn't hurt, and you can take the pressure out when you aren't towing. I've seen others put in an anti-sway bar and HD shocks as well.
Guys like Herk (and many others) are invaluable!

[quick83]

Big, Thanks, I have timbrens installed. Truck only drops 1 1/2 inches when loaded with RV even before timbrens were installed. I will probably be getting some help with the springs so I can increase my GVWR. Axle is fine. The ride is pretty darn good with the stock shocks.