Ford 6.2 Vs GM 6.0?

[cmysstailights]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

The E85 thing is relative. It can be equally or more cost effective, depending on location. For instance, regular E10 in my area is going for roughly $2.32. Regular E0 is going for $2.70. E85 is going for $1.89.

Now, with my 2015 2500 6.0, for all miles (rural, town, highway) I average about 14 mpg with E10 or E0. That plays out to about 16.5 cents a mile fuel cost on E10, 19.3 cents a mile on E0.

On E85, the average mpg I get it roughly 11 mpg. At current price, that is about 17 cents a mile.

So while the mpg with E85 can be discouraging, the actual cost per mile may not really be an issue. Again, depends on location pricing.

But I am fully sold on flex fuel capability. Back when we were seeing $4 or more for regular gas in the Midwest, I could get E85 for $1 - $1.50 less than regular E10. My vehicles lived on E85 for almost 2 years. It was substantially cheaper, on a cost per mile basis, than regular.

For the diesel crowd, diesel was trying to peg $5 a gallon back then. I know because I have to go thru about 21,000 gallons of diesel a year for my commercial stuff. I have no real need for diesel in my personal pickup, and I don't even consider it. Not with the new emissions equipped diesels.

When i upgraded from 1500 to 2500, e85 was a big factor. 1.55 gal here 87 is 2.60. 90% st. I get 8mpg, on hwy i see 14 to 15mpg on flat stretches. Upstate e85 is 2.50 a gal and rare to find so i plan on carrying about 30gal when i go camping. Would love to find a hand held tuner that can tune for e85 and 87.

[Johntgif]

I've go a 2017 Sierra 2500HD with the 6.0 and I love it. I have to look in the mirror every now and then to be sure my FR 321BHTS is still behind me. :-)

[97flhtcui]

I pull my 34RL Cedar Creek with my 2011 F-250 6.2L gas. I now have 123,000 on the truck and pulled the CC thru Vail pass eastbound in Colorado, and have over 25,000 pulling the trailer. It gets the job done at an average of 9mpg. I will never go back to diesel.

[Crabman]

Originally Posted by Johntgif

I've go a 2017 Sierra 2500HD with the 6.0 and I love it. I have to look in the mirror every now and then to be sure my FR 321BHTS is still behind me. :-)

I sure know my 8000 lb trailer is behind me, especially on hills.. But of course I have the older 6.0 with the 4 speed tranny and and 60 less HP.

[ronheater70]

Originally Posted by BigH

Correct...Sorry about that folks, I crossed the wires in my melon with the Ram.

Don't recall my Ram asking for Premium?

[cmysstailights]

The 6.2 in the silverado 1500 do, 1 downside to why i did not by the 6.2 and went with the 5.3

[BigH]

Originally Posted by ronheater70

Don't recall my Ram asking for Premium?

2016 manual:
"6.4L Engine
This engine is designed to meet all emissions regulations and provide satisfactory fuel economy and performance when using high quality unleaded gasoline having a posted octane number range of 87 to 89 as specified by the (R+M)/2 method. The use of 89 octane “Plus” gasoline is recommended for optimum performance and fuel economy.
While operating on gasoline with an octane number of 87, hearing a light knocking sound from the engine is not a cause for concern. However, if the engine is heard making a heavy knocking sound, see your dealer immediately. Use of gasoline with an octane number lower than 87 can cause engine failure and may void or not be covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty."

--^that would suggest to me that it would be wise in hot weather to use higher octane and even more so when towing.

A little research suggests there have been some changes over the years.
2014 called for 87
2015 called for 89 2015 truck 6.4L Hemi now calls for 89 octance - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum

Now I'm curious...what's your manual say?

[Stovebolt]

Originally Posted by cmysstailights

When i upgraded from 1500 to 2500, e85 was a big factor. 1.55 gal here 87 is 2.60. 90% st. I get 8mpg, on hwy i see 14 to 15mpg on flat stretches. Upstate e85 is 2.50 a gal and rare to find so i plan on carrying about 30gal when i go camping. Would love to find a hand held tuner that can tune for e85 and 87.

You get much better gas mileage not using E-85, the little you gain in price difference does not pan out in gas mileage. E-85 get 40% worse mileage and the only reason it's on the market at all is that it's subsidized by the feds. You also have to weigh in the fact that it destroys plastic and rubber that connect many things in your engine compartment. It also takes 9 gal of water to make 1 gal of ethanol. That water is wasted. In my opinion, E85 should be taken off the market. Henry Ford experimented with this in the 1920's and found it not suitable for use and gasoline got much higher mileage with a lot fewer problems to boot. Ethanol attracts water when sitting and is more explosive than gas. I pay the extra for gas because in the long run, you will pay a high price for repairs unless you lease. That's just my humble opinion but I have researched this.

[cmysstailights]

When i ran it in my 1500 street miles was 12 mpg 87 was 15 mpg. Hwy 19 to 20mpg 87 was 22 mpg. Price difference was always at 1.00. In this truck e85 on hwy is 14 mpg 87 was 17mpg. Street e85 is 8 ,9mpg 87 12

[dmillar74]

Originally Posted by BigH

2016 manual:

"6.4L Engine

This engine is designed to meet all emissions regulations and provide satisfactory fuel economy and performance when using high quality unleaded gasoline having a posted octane number range of 87 to 89 as specified by the (R+M)/2 method. The use of 89 octane “Plus” gasoline is recommended for optimum performance and fuel economy.

While operating on gasoline with an octane number of 87, hearing a light knocking sound from the engine is not a cause for concern. However, if the engine is heard making a heavy knocking sound, see your dealer immediately. Use of gasoline with an octane number lower than 87 can cause engine failure and may void or not be covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty."



--^that would suggest to me that it would be wise in hot weather to use higher octane and even more so when towing.



A little research suggests there have been some changes over the years.

2014 called for 87

2015 called for 89 2015 truck 6.4L Hemi now calls for 89 octance - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum



Now I'm curious...what's your manual say?

I have a 2016 2500 ram with the 6.4 L. My manual says that 89 octane is recommended... 87 octane acceptable.

[GearHd6]

Originally Posted by dmillar74

I have a 2016 2500 ram with the 6.4 L. My manual says that 89 octane is recommended... 87 octane acceptable. Attachment 160175

Same with my 2018. And 93 is premium, not 89.

[Dennis and Julie]

Originally Posted by Stovebolt

You get much better gas mileage not using E-85, the little you gain in price difference does not pan out in gas mileage. E-85 get 40% worse mileage and the only reason it's on the market at all is that it's subsidized by the feds. You also have to weigh in the fact that it destroys plastic and rubber that connect many things in your engine compartment. It also takes 9 gal of water to make 1 gal of ethanol. That water is wasted. In my opinion, E85 should be taken off the market. Henry Ford experimented with this in the 1920's and found it not suitable for use and gasoline got much higher mileage with a lot fewer problems to boot. Ethanol attracts water when sitting and is more explosive than gas. I pay the extra for gas because in the long run, you will pay a high price for repairs unless you lease. That's just my humble opinion but I have researched this.

X2 I don't even use E10, I didn't buy my truck for the mileage, I bought it to pull my camper and my husband's to pull the boat.

[Mslaman]

We had a 2001 single cab 2500 HD 6.0 Chevy with the 6.0. Pulled the trailer great but always overheated going up the mountains in AZ. Sold it. Yes we have big mountains in AZ.
We also have a 2005 2500 HD Chevy 6.0 crew cab 4x4. Didn’t tow as well as the 2001 but has 4x4 so I kept it as our play on the forest roads truck. It also tows our trout fishing boat.
We bought a 2016 2500 HD Chevy diesel. Love love love this truck. I don’t worry about anything any more.
Except of course when my wife steals it while I’m at work..........

[jacknife]

Raptor is a half ton off road truck
For the money one of those cost you could get diesel .

[Mad Cow]

Originally Posted by Stovebolt

You get much better gas mileage not using E-85, the little you gain in price difference does not pan out in gas mileage. E-85 get 40% worse mileage and the only reason it's on the market at all is that it's subsidized by the feds. You also have to weigh in the fact that it destroys plastic and rubber that connect many things in your engine compartment. It also takes 9 gal of water to make 1 gal of ethanol. That water is wasted. In my opinion, E85 should be taken off the market. Henry Ford experimented with this in the 1920's and found it not suitable for use and gasoline got much higher mileage with a lot fewer problems to boot. Ethanol attracts water when sitting and is more explosive than gas. I pay the extra for gas because in the long run, you will pay a high price for repairs unless you lease. That's just my humble opinion but I have researched this.

How misconceptions abound, and I get the feeling your research was biased.

It takes only slightly more water to make a gallon of ethanol than it does a gallon of gasoline. Gasoline production uses about 2.5 gallons of water for every gallon of fuel made, while ethanol production uses 3 gallons of water for every gallon of fuel made. This link is a little dated. Actually ethanol production is almost at parity with gasoline production now as it pertains to water consumed in production. If you are so worried about water usage, check out the other items on the list in this link. One can only imagine the thousands upon thousands of gallons of water it took to make just one travel trailer or tow vehicle.

https://web.extension.illinois.edu/ethanol/wateruse.cfm

Now, whether using the product is cost effective is not solely based on the mpg it delivers, but the actual cost per mile. The price spread is such in most places that E85 is at such a lower price that even with the decreased fuel economy in using it, it is still cheaper on a cost per mile basis to use. Especially so when compared to Premium gasoline. In my area, E85 is going for around $1.75 a gallon. Premium is going for roughly $2.95. At an average of 11 mpg on E85 that my 2015 Chevy 2500 6.0L gets, it would have to get over 18 mpg on premium to just break even. Not going to happen except maybe on a down hill with a tail wind.

As for ethanol doing all those dastardly things to engines and fuel systems, one will have to explain how my 1974 Pontiac with a carbureted 400ci engine ran on E10 from the late 1970's thru the mid 1990's and the car finally bit the dust at 250,000 miles without ever experiencing a fuel related issue (the car died of body cancer, but the engine was fine). Or when we were having that $4 and higher for regular gas thing some years back, and my vehicles lived on E85 for almost two years straight since it was $1 to $1.50 a gallon cheaper. Not one fuel related issue with them either. Don't equate what happened to Joe's lawnmower with it's vented fuel system when it used ethanol fuel. Auto fuel systems are not vented, so contamination, hydroscopic, and other issues are not really a problem except on the internet.

And whether the fuel is good or not, explain that to Cummins, who has developed a 2.8L E85 I4 engine that equals the performance of a 5.7L Hemi and gets better fuel economy to boot. How about Ricardo, a GM partner, who took a 3.6L V6, beefed up the guts, and on E85 it will deliver the same power and fuel economy as a 6.6L Dmax diesel. When the engine is designed around the fuel, as opposed to just making a standard engine compatible with the fuel, then good things can happen. You can find multiple references and articles to both these engines on the internet.

Ethanol is more explosive than gas? 87 octane gasoline is less explosive than 105 octane ethanol? That seems strange, especially since higher octane rating is usually associated with less volatility.

Ethanol is more expensive than gas? Yesterday's market closing price for gasoline and ethanol.....

Gasoline $1.85
Ethanol $1.34

Ethanol Futures Quotes - CME Group
RBOB Gasoline Futures Quotes - CME Group

And finally, all ethanol subsidies were eliminated, at the behest of the ethanol producers themselves, at the end of 2011. There are no subsidies for ethanol production. Only thing that could be considered a "subsidy" is for retailers to install ethanol blender pumps. Those are retailers. Ethanol producers don't sell fuel at the retail level.

And ethanol is more environmentally friendly. Pour out a gallon of ethanol on the ground and there is no concern, even from the EPA. Ethanol is biodegradable. Pour out a gallon of gasoline and the EPA will not like you.

[Stovebolt]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

How misconceptions abound, and I get the feeling your research was biased.

It takes only slightly more water to make a gallon of ethanol than it does a gallon of gasoline. Gasoline production uses about 2.5 gallons of water for every gallon of fuel made, while ethanol production uses 3 gallons of water for every gallon of fuel made. This link is a little dated. Actually ethanol production is almost at parity with gasoline production now as it pertains to water consumed in production. If you are so worried about water usage, check out the other items on the list in this link. One can only imagine the thousands upon thousands of gallons of water it took to make just one travel trailer or tow vehicle.

https://web.extension.illinois.edu/ethanol/wateruse.cfm

Now, whether using the product is cost effective is not solely based on the mpg it delivers, but the actual cost per mile. The price spread is such in most places that E85 is at such a lower price that even with the decreased fuel economy in using it, it is still cheaper on a cost per mile basis to use. Especially so when compared to Premium gasoline. In my area, E85 is going for around $1.75 a gallon. Premium is going for roughly $2.95. At an average of 11 mpg on E85 that my 2015 Chevy 2500 6.0L gets, it would have to get over 18 mpg on premium to just break even. Not going to happen except maybe on a down hill with a tail wind.

As for ethanol doing all those dastardly things to engines and fuel systems, one will have to explain how my 1974 Pontiac with a carbureted 400ci engine ran on E10 from the late 1970's thru the mid 1990's and the car finally bit the dust at 250,000 miles without ever experiencing a fuel related issue (the car died of body cancer, but the engine was fine). Or when we were having that $4 and higher for regular gas thing some years back, and my vehicles lived on E85 for almost two years straight since it was $1 to $1.50 a gallon cheaper. Not one fuel related issue with them either. Don't equate what happened to Joe's lawnmower with it's vented fuel system when it used ethanol fuel. Auto fuel systems are not vented, so contamination, hydroscopic, and other issues are not really a problem except on the internet.

And whether the fuel is good or not, explain that to Cummins, who has developed a 2.8L E85 I4 engine that equals the performance of a 5.7L Hemi and gets better fuel economy to boot. How about Ricardo, a GM partner, who took a 3.6L V6, beefed up the guts, and on E85 it will deliver the same power and fuel economy as a 6.6L Dmax diesel. When the engine is designed around the fuel, as opposed to just making a standard engine compatible with the fuel, then good things can happen. You can find multiple references and articles to both these engines on the internet.

Ethanol is more explosive than gas? 87 octane gasoline is less explosive than 105 octane ethanol? That seems strange, especially since higher octane rating is usually associated with less volatility.

Ethanol is more expensive than gas? Yesterday's market closing price for gasoline and ethanol.....

Gasoline $1.85
Ethanol $1.34

Ethanol Futures Quotes - CME Group
RBOB Gasoline Futures Quotes - CME Group

And finally, all ethanol subsidies were eliminated, at the behest of the ethanol producers themselves, at the end of 2011. There are no subsidies for ethanol production. Only thing that could be considered a "subsidy" is for retailers to install ethanol blender pumps. Those are retailers. Ethanol producers don't sell fuel at the retail level.

And ethanol is more environmentally friendly. Pour out a gallon of ethanol on the ground and there is no concern, even from the EPA. Ethanol is biodegradable. Pour out a gallon of gasoline and the EPA will not like you.

Then explain why every gas version of yard equipment from lawnmowers to chainshaws tell you never to run ethanol? I have had more equipment ruined from ethanol than any other form of fuel burning equipment. E10 doesn't do as much damage as E85. Plenty of proof out there about it. You like ethanol that's fine. I don't. nuff said.

[GearHd6]

I think he did mention the problem with small engines using it. It's the fact the fuel system is vented to the air, the fuel is able to absorb water which is what causes the small engine problems.

[Mad Cow]

Dead on, GearHd6.

For the automotive user, the only way one is going to experience any major hydroscopic issues with ethanol is if they are filling their tank in a hurricane and water gets in the tank or they are adding water to the tank themselves. Why they would do that, I have no clue.

To be fair in all of this, while I do use ethanol for my auto/pickup, I also buy ethanol free for my small OPE use. I am not stupid. But I also do not suffer from an enlarged paranoia gland that causes me to think that ethanol is the doom of mankind like some folks do. I also don't put diesel fuel in my gasoline engine vehicles. But why not? After all, diesel provides more lubricity to fuel pumps, right? That would be stupid. One can be open minded about things but still not have all their brains fall out.

[5picker]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

Dead on, GearHd6.

For the automotive user, the only way one is going to experience any major hydroscopic issues with ethanol is if they are filling their tank in a hurricane and water gets in the tank or they are adding water to the tank themselves. Why they would do that, I have no clue.

To be fair in all of this, while I do use ethanol for my auto/pickup, I also buy ethanol free for my small OPE use. I am not stupid. But I also do not suffer from an enlarged paranoia gland that causes me to think that ethanol is the doom of mankind like some folks do. I also don't put diesel fuel in my gasoline engine vehicles. But why not? After all, diesel provides more lubricity to fuel pumps, right? That would be stupid. One can be open minded about things but still not have all their brains fall out.

[GearHd6]

I was an avid snowmobiler back when the ethanol fuel started getting big. I can remember so many engines burning down along the side of the trail. The fix back them was adding something like StarTron fuel additive at every fill up. That seemed to have remedied the problem. I still use ethanol fuel in my small engines, I just use an additive and I never store them with that fuel in them.