Gross Combined Tow Rating (GCWR)

[Sandy12345]

Hello everyone, as somewhat a novice at this RV phenomenon I don't understand a lot of what I read about two the varying weight components that make up a tow package. I am towing a max GVWR fifth wheel rv of 9200# with a 2007 Tundra with a GVWR of 6900#, payload of 1475# and max two rating of 10,600# Forest River says that my dry load pin weight is 1300#. We don't pull totally light so I added 200# to that for 1500#. I've already been told by many on the forum that my truck is woefully insufficient to pull this fifth wheel. We don't pack much into it when we travel since we have only camped locally within 50 miles so don't feel unsafe at this time. However we would like to begin venturing out further so am looking at newer trucks that can pull my rv safely. I am looking at one of the new Ford F150 ecoboost trucks with a 3300# payload and higher towing capacity. Any input on this would be appreciated. Also, what makes up the Gross Combined Weight Rating(GCWR) of a tow vehicle. The newer trucks actually give you that rating but I can't find it for my tundra anywhere. What make up that number? Any help in helping me understand all this towing stuff will be greatly appreciated. I don't want to endanger you or me or anyone else while pulling my rv.

[B and B]

I am former F 150 driver x 4 in my life. Just traded a Eco on a F 250. The properly equipped is the key word in your rating. My truck had a CCC of 1700 lbs i towed similar 5er to what you are doing.

http://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/ge...de_english.pdf

You need to make sure you have the right equipment. The payload might be 3,300 but add options, people, hitch etc it drops pretty quick. You can read all the specs you want it comes down to the yellow sticker on the door frame. Check a Truck on the lot. I can almost say the max CCC will not be over 2100 lbs. Unless the truck has rubber mats and no options it might be higher. Also check the Max in the towing guide for frontal area and RV weight.

I can not spend your money or tell you what to buy. I would go for Diesel and F 250 minimum.

[itat]

Before you go too far, I suggest you first weigh your setup at a local CAT scale to make sure you have accurate numbers. Don't trust the numbers from a brochure.

Check out this older thread.
http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...tml#post194134

This website
Fifth Wheel Weight Calculator

and this

[donniedu]

Ask yourself a very simple question.
Why do you want a minimum vehicle to do the job?
Do you buy a hand saw to frame a house?
Do you buy the cheapest oil for your vehicles?
Do you buy the minimum vehicle insurance?
Do you buy used clothes from Goodwill?
Do you buy a flat blade screwdriver to use on philips screws?
Get the point yet?
Get the right tool for the job and the right tool for towing a fifth wheel is NOT a 1500 series truck.

[drittal]

My truck ready to camp without tongue or pin weight is 700lbs heavier than sticker. Wife, kids, dog, me over 150lbs, nerf bars, bed mat, bed cover, hitch, cooler, and blocking.

That 700lbs not only takes up payload and reduces available capacity for tongue/pin weight, but also effectively reduces the maximum size of trailer I can tow via GCWR.

[ependydad]

I agree with itat- you have the truck and fifth wheel, to weigh them and get real weights!

As well, I'm biased- but I like my site way better for weights:
Actual Weights - Fifth Wheel Weights from CAT Scales - Towing Planner

On the page are instructions for weighing a fifth wheel.

[jkoenig24]

MOST pickup trucks are, at best, marginally adequate to pull today's heavy 5th wheel trailers. When a loaded trailer weighs MORE THAN the tow vehicle, it's simply a matter of WHEN the trailer will "drive" the tow vehicle (instead of the tow vehicle driving the trailer). Of course, this will happen at the worst possible time. The RVSEF (RV Safety and Education Foundation) reports that 57% of tow vehicles they accurately weigh, are overweight in at least one parameter (often more than one parameter). Truck salespeople will say anything to sell you a truck. If the salesperson's lips are moving, they're probably lying. Federal regulations REQUIRE the makers of vehicles that are intended for towing, publish a Towing Guide. The trick is, that dealers only have to provide said Towing Guide when the customer specifically requests one AND, dealers do not have to keep Towing Guides from prior years (they don't; just ask for last year's Towing Guide and see). The Towing Guide is the DEFINITIVE rule as to what the manufacturers' engineers have determined to be the SAFE towing capabilities of a SPECIFIC vehicle's build. Change ANYTHING on a tow vehicle and, you probably change that vehicles APPROVED tow rating.

Here's a link to a great towing resource:

Home | Heavy Haulers RV Resource Guide

Note: these HDTs can achieve fuel economy that beats what a big gas or diesel engine pickup truck can get and, the ride is soooooooo much better than what ANY pickup could provide.

[lckeehne]

Highly recommend the truck scales. Real eye opener. Agree with ITAT

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by jkoenig24

MOST pickup trucks are, at best, marginally adequate to pull today's heavy 5th wheel trailers. When a loaded trailer weighs MORE THAN the tow vehicle, it's simply a matter of WHEN the trailer will "drive" the tow vehicle (instead of the tow vehicle driving the trailer). Of course, this will happen at the worst possible time. The RVSEF (RV Safety and Education Foundation) reports that 57% of tow vehicles they accurately weigh, are overweight in at least one parameter (often more than one parameter). Truck salespeople will say anything to sell you a truck. If the salesperson's lips are moving, they're probably lying. Federal regulations REQUIRE the makers of vehicles that are intended for towing, publish a Towing Guide. The trick is, that dealers only have to provide said Towing Guide when the customer specifically requests one AND, dealers do not have to keep Towing Guides from prior years (they don't; just ask for last year's Towing Guide and see). The Towing Guide is the DEFINITIVE rule as to what the manufacturers' engineers have determined to be the SAFE towing capabilities of a SPECIFIC vehicle's build. Change ANYTHING on a tow vehicle and, you probably change that vehicles APPROVED tow rating.

Here's a link to a great towing resource:

Home | Heavy Haulers RV Resource Guide

Note: these HDTs can achieve fuel economy that beats what a big gas or diesel engine pickup truck can get and, the ride is soooooooo much better than what ANY pickup could provide.

While I'm all for a MDT or HDT, this is comically overkill for a 10k fifth wheel which is what the OP refers to.

[Jim34RL]

Originally Posted by jkoenig24

MOST pickup trucks are, at best, marginally adequate to pull today's heavy 5th wheel trailers.

Where did you come up with this fact.

Since the Ram pick-up trucks has been certified to comply with the SAE towing regulation J2807. The new 2016 Ram 3500 Dually regular cab, long bed truck with the 6.7L Cummins and 4:10 differential and 6 spd auto has a max towing rating of 31,500 LBS. Which will work for any 5th wheel that Forest Rivers sells.

[jkoenig24]

"Where did you come up with this fact."

I didn't "come up with this fact". The RV education and Safety Foundation determined this after ACCURATELY weighing thousands of RVs. When RVSEF weighs an RV and / or trailer, they weigh each tire position. It is not unusual for an axle rated at 12,000 pounds to be overweight on just one side when a combined weight (like you'd get at CAT Scales) may indicate the total axle weight is OK. Many (most?) people load their rigs with much more "stuff" than they really need. RV designers don't always allocate weight evenly around and across their products. Without getting a PROPER weighing, a user can't really know if their RV is balanced and, within ALL weight limits. C Class motorhomes that are built on chassis that were designed to be pickup trucks often do not have a lot of excess capacity to SAFELY carry all the stuff people want to bring along.

The 2016 Dodge Ram pickup you cite may be rated to tow as much as 31,000 pounds but, when someone decides to tow a trailer that weighs more than the tow vehicle, the laws of physics are note magically altered. In a worst case scenario where the trailer brakes fail or fade (and Murphy's Law will see that such failure occurs on a wet, downhill slope), I sure don't want to be along on that ride.

[itat]

Jkoenig24, although your point about overloading and unbalanced trailers is well taken, the OP was about the truck so I'll focus on that.

Today's pickups are much more robust than those of 20 years ago. Unless you're talking about 1/2 ton pickups when you say "most pickup trucks", I have to disagree. I would agree that most 1/2 tons are not going to be adequate for most 5ers but 3/4 ton and 1 ton pickups are quite adequate for lots of 5ers as long as you pay attention to the weights. I agree with ependydad that suggesting you need one of those HDTs is total overkill for all but the largest 5ers.

You mentioned having to stop the trailer without functioning trailer brakes. Do you have any statistics on failure rates for trailer brakes - particular where such failures cause an accident? I suspect that the chances of the trailer brakes failing is rare so I would not be concerned about having to stop the trailer with just the TV's brakes.

[jkoenig24]

itat, I've started RVing in 2010. Since then, I've lost count of the "white knuckle" stories I've heard from pickup truck owners. As for accidents, if there's no SPI (Serious Physical Injury) or death, an accident will likely just be paperwork filed away somewhere. I expect many "white knuckle" stories end favorably just from pure luck but, still leave the driver very shaken, realizing how close he came to disaster. Bottom line, it's hard to go wrong upsizing to an MDT or HDT. I've NEVER spoken with an HDT owner who regretted "graduating" to a "real" truck. Most folks who choose to go the HDT route buy "gently used" Class 7 or 8 trucks that has been retired after logging 500,000 miles, (the engine warranty expires at 500k and the tranny warranty runs to 750,000 miles!). Engines and transmissions used in Class 7 & 8 trucks, are engineered and built, to provide 1,000,000 miles of service with only filter and fluid changes required. For most RVers, that's one service / year. A carefully purchased HDT is likely to be the last tow vehicle you'll ever have to buy. The superior ride and fuel economy one gets in a MDT or HDT is icing on the cake.

I realize that a MDT or HDT is not for everyone. Most RVers are not aware that these "real" trucks can be re-purposed from commercial service to use as RV haulers. Once repurposed, the owner should never have to worry about being overweight as far as towing goes (you would have to be sure to not overload your trailer axles though). There is an HDT group that holds annual rallies (Crossville, TN in April; Hutchinson, KS in October). EVERYONE is welcome to attend. Almost half of the 70+ attendees last month were "newbies" and folks who came to learn about HDTs. Here are some informative links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2hBRZwkFcM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVt5-jdJ_ug

2014 HDT Rally Truck Photos

[ependydad]

jkoenig24, you're still recommending a MDT or HDT for a 10k trailer and that's crazily and comically overkill.

[spock123]

Originally Posted by jkoenig24

itat, I've started RVing in 2010. Since then, I've lost count of the "white knuckle" stories I've heard from pickup truck owners. As for accidents, if there's no SPI (Serious Physical Injury) or death, an accident will likely just be paperwork filed away somewhere. I expect many "white knuckle" stories end favorably just from pure luck but, still leave the driver very shaken, realizing how close he came to disaster. Bottom line, it's hard to go wrong upsizing to an MDT or HDT. I've NEVER spoken with an HDT owner who regretted "graduating" to a "real" truck. Most folks who choose to go the HDT route buy "gently used" Class 7 or 8 trucks that has been retired after logging 500,000 miles, (the engine warranty expires at 500k and the tranny warranty runs to 750,000 miles!). Engines and transmissions used in Class 7 & 8 trucks, are engineered and built, to provide 1,000,000 miles of service with only filter and fluid changes required. For most RVers, that's one service / year. A carefully purchased HDT is likely to be the last tow vehicle you'll ever have to buy. The superior ride and fuel economy one gets in a MDT or HDT is icing on the cake.



I realize that a MDT or HDT is not for everyone. Most RVers are not aware that these "real" trucks can be re-purposed from commercial service to use as RV haulers. Once repurposed, the owner should never have to worry about being overweight as far as towing goes (you would have to be sure to not overload your trailer axles though). There is an HDT group that holds annual rallies (Crossville, TN in April; Hutchinson, KS in October). EVERYONE is welcome to attend. Almost half of the 70+ attendees last month were "newbies" and folks who came to learn about HDTs. Here are some informative links:

2014 HDT Rally Truck Photos

I wonder if you can take a HDT off road. When I go out west I sometimes chase wild horses. I know people buy used trucks all the time but I buy new. What would a HDT cost new?


Sent from my iPhone using Forest River Forums

[OldCoot]

[QUOTE=jkoenig24;1027510...the laws of physics are not magically altered. In a worst case scenario where the trailer brakes fail or fade (and Murphy's Law will see that such failure occurs on a wet, downhill slope), I sure don't want to be along on ride.[/QUOTE]

Be reasonable!!! We have enough fear mongering going on in everyday life! I don't know how civilization has survived this long!

[Jim34RL]

Originally Posted by jkoenig24

"Where did you come up with this fact."

I didn't "come up with this fact". The RV education and Safety Foundation determined this after ACCURATELY weighing thousands of RVs. When RVSEF weighs an RV and / or trailer, they weigh each tire position. It is not unusual for an axle rated at 12,000 pounds to be overweight on just one side when a combined weight (like you'd get at CAT Scales) may indicate the total axle weight is OK. Many (most?) people load their rigs with much more "stuff" than they really need. RV designers don't always allocate weight evenly around and across their products. Without getting a PROPER weighing, a user can't really know if their RV is balanced and, within ALL weight limits. C Class motorhomes that are built on chassis that were designed to be pickup trucks often do not have a lot of excess capacity to SAFELY carry all the stuff people want to bring along.

The 2016 Dodge Ram pickup you cite may be rated to tow as much as 31,000 pounds but, when someone decides to tow a trailer that weighs more than the tow vehicle, the laws of physics are note magically altered. In a worst case scenario where the trailer brakes fail or fade (and Murphy's Law will see that such failure occurs on a wet, downhill slope), I sure don't want to be along on that ride.

Have you stop and read the SAE J2807 requirements? IF not here is a small portion of the requirements that a vehicle manufacture must comply with if they are stating that they comply with SAE J2807.

The main test methods that the trucks are measured on as per J2807:



Cooling capability on a long highway upgrade modeled on the Davis Dam grade on Arizona SR 68;
Launch and acceleration performance on a level road and a 12 percent upgrade;
Combined handling performance – understeer and trailer sway;
Combined braking performance – stopping distance and parking brake-hold on grade; and
Structural performance for the vehicle and hitch or hitch receiver.


I will tow with any vehicle that meets these requirements.

Now the RAM diesel engine truck uses a medium duty truck engine the ISB 6.7L Cummins same engine used in a Freightliner truck, that you quote. The AISIN transmission is a medium duty truck transmission. This is similar if not the same now, that the C&C trucks that RAM sells to aftermarket vehicle builders. These are trucks that provide inter-city delivery vehicles and ambulances.

Granted a HDT or MDT truck is nice but not everyone needs one to tow a 5er with.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Be reasonable!!!

X1000

Originally Posted by Jim34RL

Granted a HDT or MDT truck is nice but not everyone needs one to tow a 5er with.

ESPECIALLY the original poster who wants to tow a sub 10,000 lb. fifth wheel.

I get tagged with the "weight police" moniker often, but the suggestion of a MDT/HDT for this situation is laughable.

[amblt]

Originally Posted by Jim34RL

Where did you come up with this fact.

Since the Ram pick-up trucks has been certified to comply with the SAE towing regulation J2807. The new 2016 Ram 3500 Dually regular cab, long bed truck with the 6.7L Cummins and 4:10 differential and 6 spd auto has a max towing rating of 31,500 LBS. Which will work for any 5th wheel that Forest Rivers sells.

A little prickly are we? He said most, not all. judging by what I hear and see at campgrounds and on this forum- I would have to agree. I also agree with the poster who said:
Ask yourself a very simple question.
Why do you want a minimum vehicle to do the job?
Do you buy a hand saw to frame a house?
Do you buy the cheapest oil for your vehicles?
Do you buy the minimum vehicle insurance?
Do you buy used clothes from Goodwill?
Do you buy a flat blade screwdriver to use on philips screws?
Get the point yet?
Get the right tool for the job and the right tool for towing a fifth wheel is NOT a 1500 series truck.

I have been towing smaller trailers for nearly 40 years, including one single axle 19ft Rockwood 5th wheel. We have just graduated to a 2004 27.8 Cougar, which maxes out at 8140 Lbs. I have done a pile of research and discovered that the lighter duty trucks would never haul this trailer comfortably. So we fell into a deal of a terrific used F150 and bought it. It will never haul our 5th wheel (parked at a seasonal site all year), so when we retire next year we will sell the Cougar, find a nice trailer at about 6000 lb or so, and be safe and happy while we travel.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by amblt

...Get the right tool for the job and the right tool for towing a fifth wheel is NOT a 1500 series truck.

I have been towing smaller trailers for nearly 40 years, including one single axle 19ft Rockwood 5th wheel. We have just graduated to a 2004 27.8 Cougar, which maxes out at 8140 Lbs. I have done a pile of research and discovered that the lighter duty trucks would never haul this trailer comfortably. So we fell into a deal of a terrific used F150 and bought it. It will never haul our 5th wheel (parked at a seasonal site all year), so when we retire next year we will sell the Cougar, find a nice trailer at about 6000 lb or so, and be safe and happy while we travel.

Some of us can't afford a new 5er and a new truck, so we have to make do with what we have. I've only pulled an 08Flagstaff 831RLSS about 30K and a 12 Flagstaff 8528RKWS about 40K with an 05 Silverado 1/2T 5.3L with a 3.23 rear end. Have not had a bit of a problem so far. It may blow sky high on the way to FL in a couple of weeks, if so, we'll get a new engine or whatever blows and "keep on truckin'".