Help me understand the numbers on towing capacity of my Yukon Denali

[NancyTX]

First of all, my hat is off to those of you who understand all this stuff and who take the time to explain it. I am trying to learn and want to see if I am getting it right. I would like to get a ballpark on the capability of my 2008 Yukon Denali to tow a larger trailer. We currently have a 17 ft. Jayco featherlight, with the tent beds on each end, but want to move to a trailer with a walk around bed and more amenities, hopefully without changing our TV. I used the calculator in Changing Gears that was referenced in some of the threads. I read the manual for the car, and got the numbers off the door plates as explained in the manual. I also have the original window sticker from the car. Using these sources, I came up with the following information:

This is the short version of the Denali,not the XL. It is an AWD vehicle, with a 6.2 V8, and axle ratio of 3.42. It has self leveling rear shocks and autoride suspension.
GVWR 7,100
GCWR 14,000
Max trailer weight 7,900
GAWR 3550 front, 4100 rear
MVCW 1375 (found on door of car)
Max tongue weight (from manual) 600 lbs with weight carrying hitch, 1000 lbs with weight distributing hitch [ we plan to purchase the latter)

Putting this info into the Changing Gears calculator, I come up with Max. trailer weight of 6,900 lbs, but only 5,520 if I use the 20% safety margin. Please confirm that this is the number I should use for the LOADED trailer - not the dry weight of the trailer. Right? Thus, if there is going to be 1000 lbs of gear/propane/water in the trailer, then the trailer itself should only weigh 4,520 lbs, if abiding by the 20% safety rule. Right?

I understand that the dry trailer weight listed in the Rockwood trailer brochure may be/probably is less than the actual weight of the trailer. Can I trust the number posted on the door of the actual unit is a pretty accurate dry weight - provided the dealer hasn't added any items?

What about the weight of the hitch? Is it counted as part of the trailer load in making this calculation? Or is it counted as part of the additional weight that the car carries?

The Changing Gear calculator also says that the max. tongue weight (assuming the tongue weight is 12% of trailer weight) is 828 lbs, but if using the 20% margin, it is 662 lbs. Am I right that this is simply a calculation based on the maximum trailer weight @ 12%?

Finally, I am confused by the MVCW number of 1325, found on the door of the car. Based on what it says in the car manual, this appears to be the maximum amount of weight you can put in the car itself. If so, and if the passengers and dog weigh 535 lbs, that only leaves 840 lbs of additional weight that the car can carry. Does the weight of the gasoline, and the hitch weight come out of this number? How about the tongue weight? Do I subtract it from this number? If so, it seems like we won't be able to carry anything in the car if we are pulling a trailer, and that we should go on diets and get a smaller dog!

Put it all together and it looks like to me that we need to consider something smaller than the 2604 Rockwood Ultralite that we fell in love with that has a dry weight posted on the door of about 5800 lbs. Either that, or get a different TV.

I really appreciate your guidance in understanding these numbers.

[MtnGuy]

You have done a lot of homework already.....kudos to you !!

The 6900 lbs that you got from changing gears is probably the GCWR minus the Yukon's GVWR. If you don't load the Yukon to the max, then you can tow more.

But, as you stated, by the time you add the passengers and the dog (535 lbs), plus the weight of the trailer tongue you will be close to the GVWR of the Yukon.....or maybe even over. The MVCW (I presume that means maximum vehicle cargo weight ??) is figured on what the factory says your vehicle weighed when made. Some fluids are figured into that and some not.....like gas. Any other additions you have added to the Yukon would also have to befigured in. You would also have to figure in camping gear and such thrown into the back.....it all adds up.

The hitch is part of the tow vehicle, and would add to your Yukon weight. That alone can be 60 lbs. or so.

The tongue weight listed in brochures is usually a low estimate of tongue weight. After propane and a battery are added, that can be an additional 100 lbs. or more. Also, as you load the camper, the tongue will get heavier.

BTW..... to the forum !!

[camper_Lucy]

Reading through your note without running the numbers it looks like you have it right. not sure what everyone runs for margin, but just want to make sure you are not confusing margin with hitch weight percentage of load, for a TT is 10-15% You could drop your margin to get a larger hitch weight (15%) gives you 850lbs (weight dist) but I do not see a way for you to get to the 6629lbs GVWR of the 2604 at best it looks like it would be about .5% margin on that TT and TV combo.

[camper_Lucy]

TT specs for what the OP was asking,

2604 Rockwood Ultralite

Dry Weight 5228lbs
GVWR 6629lbs
Cargo Capacity 1363lbs
Hitch Weight 629lbs
Axle Weight 4599lbs
Exterior Height 9.33'
Exterior Length 29.08'
Exterior Width 8.00'
Interior Height 6.50'
Fresh Water
Black Water
Gray Water 37gal
38gal
38gal
Awning Size 21'

[MtnGuy]

Another thing that should be considered is the length of the trailer in relation to the wheelbase of the tow vehicle. That trailer is close to 30' long......that is a lot of trailer for a vehicle with a 116" wheelbase.

[Herk7769]

This will take a bit so bear with us.

Some quick replies to your questions:

Finally, I am confused by the MVCW number of 1325, found on the door of the car. Based on what it says in the car manual, this appears to be the maximum amount of weight you can put in the car itself.

Yea, that was my guess too. Payload. However I will look that up when I validate your numbers.

If so, and if the passengers and dog weigh 535 lbs, that only leaves 840 lbs of additional weight that the car can carry.

If it is payload, that is correct.

Does the weight of the gasoline?

No, a full tank and a 150 pound driver are included in the Curb weight and not counted towards payload.

How about the tongue weight?

That IS counted as payload.

Do I subtract it from this number? YES If so, it seems like we won't be able to carry anything in the car if we are pulling a trailer, and that we should go on diets and get a smaller dog!

Tow ratings are based on a tow vehicle AT its curb weight for a given drive train and towing options (or lack thereof).

Anything you put in the car has to come off the tongue weight allowed.

But not all is lost. Remember that tongue weight depends on loading.
Moving heavy items to the rear (provided the required 10-15% ratio of tongue to gross is maintained) can shift some weight to the camper.

You do not need the 20% extra capacity stated in the calculator. Use 10% if you will be towing infrequently and can eat the extra gas if you have to make a long pull up a hill for example.

Like I said, I will re-look at all your excellent work and get back with you tonight after I validate your ratings and re-run the calculator.

[NancyTX]

It sure does add up!
By the way, I forgot to say that the car came with the "Trailering Equipment Heavy Duty"

The MVCW on the car door is described in the manual as the: "Maximum Vehicle Capacity Weight". I am kind of surpised that this may wind up being a huge limitation. I did a rough calculation as follows, but am not sure it is right.
MVCW = 1375. It is described in the manual as "all occupants and cargo cannot exceed this amount"
people and dog = 535
gas (I am guessing this qualifies as cargo?) = 22 gallons (guessing here) @ 6.073lb/gallon (from wiki) = 133 lbs.
That leaves only about 700 lbs for tongue , hitch (?) and any stuff in the car!!
According to the Changing Gears calculation, if I stick with the 20% safety factor on loaded trailer weight as the max, the tongue would be 662lbs at 12%. That means I could only carry about 40lbs of additional "stuff" in the Yukon. Heck, my purse sometimes seems to weigh more than that! And maybe the hitch takes up that amount? If I ignore the 20% safety factor, my tongue weight could go up to 828lbs. But when combined with the people, dog and gas, the MVCW would be exceeded by about 100 lbs. Am I getting that right?

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by NancyTX

Am I getting that right?

Like I said I need some time to sit down and wrap my head around this, but yea, you are getting it right.

The gas and the 150 pound driver do not count against that payload I do not believe. To be honest I have never seen payload described as it is on your door.

If you want to get blown away, just check how little you can tow with the big Hummer. I think a tricycle can tow more.

There is enough here to work with and if I need more I will get back to you.

[Herk7769]

What year is your Denali?

never mind I found it in your profile -> 2008

[mtofell]

Great info so far.... the only thing I can really add is my experience and opinion.

Basically, I'm okay loading right up to the max by adding airbags and better tires than come stock. The airbags help prevent the rear from sagging and most people consider tires to be the weak link in most tow setups.

But, all that being said, it is a drag to always be right at your limit and have to think and plan about what you're bringing with.

A 2500 series Yukon is a great tow vehicle but be ready for a MUCH stiffer ride. I basically have that vehicle (2500 Silverado Duramax) and it's a lot bumpier than my old 1/2 ton. But it's a much better TV. So, like everything, there are trade-offs.

[Triguy]

Hi Nancy,
The short answer as I calculate it is that your truck (with your family) can pull up to a realistic max of 6,000lbs, which is a fully loaded trailer, and stay within your truck's ratings.

The actual maximum is 6,400lbs but that leaves no cushion for errors or a growing family or towing up big hills or ???

Originally Posted by NancyTX

This is the short version of the Denali,not the XL. It is an AWD vehicle, with a 6.2 V8, and axle ratio of 3.42. It has self leveling rear shocks and autoride suspension.
GVWR 7,100
GCWR 14,000
Max trailer weight 7,900
GAWR 3550 front, 4100 rear
MVCW 1375 (found on door of car)
Max tongue weight (from manual) 600 lbs with weight carrying hitch, 1000 lbs with weight distributing hitch [ we plan to purchase the latter)

Putting this info into the Changing Gears calculator, I come up with Max. trailer weight of 6,900 lbs, but only 5,520 if I use the 20% safety margin. Please confirm that this is the number I should use for the LOADED trailer - not the dry weight of the trailer. Right?

Yes, 6,900lbs or 5,520 are the loaded trailer weights.

Thus, if there is going to be 1000 lbs of gear/propane/water in the trailer, then the trailer itself should only weigh 4,520 lbs, if abiding by the 20% safety rule. Right?

Yes.

I understand that the dry trailer weight listed in the Rockwood trailer brochure may be/probably is less than the actual weight of the trailer. Can I trust the number posted on the door of the actual unit is a pretty accurate dry weight - provided the dealer hasn't added any items?

Yes - that yellow sticker is supposed to be the weight off of the factory floor.

What about the weight of the hitch? Is it counted as part of the trailer load in making this calculation? Or is it counted as part of the additional weight that the car carries?

Your hitch's weight is included in the weight of the trailer when calculating what the truck can tow.

It is also included as part of the tongue weight (which gets subtracted from the truck's payload) because the tongue weight is a percentage of the loaded trailer weight.

Technically, the hitch head that goes into the truck's receiver (but not the bars) should be included as part of the truck's payload but this would be splitting hairs.


The Changing Gear calculator also says that the max. tongue weight (assuming the tongue weight is 12% of trailer weight) is 828 lbs, but if using the 20% margin, it is 662 lbs. Am I right that this is simply a calculation based on the maximum trailer weight @ 12%?

Either its based off of the trailer's loaded weight or off of the payload remaining for the tongue.

Finally, I am confused by the MVCW number of 1325, found on the door of the car. Based on what it says in the car manual, this appears to be the maximum amount of weight you can put in the car itself. If so, and if the passengers and dog weigh 535 lbs, that only leaves 840 lbs of additional weight that the car can carry. Does the weight of the gasoline, and the hitch weight come out of this number? How about the tongue weight? Do I subtract it from this number? If so, it seems like we won't be able to carry anything in the car if we are pulling a trailer, and that we should go on diets and get a smaller dog!

I've never heard of "Payload" referred to as MCVW so that's a new one one me.

Generally, subtract Curb Weight from GVWR. It's the difference between a vehicle with standard equipment and the maximum allowed weigh, which includes the weight of driver, passengers, optional equipment and cargo.

You will see some say that it includes the driver and some say not. There doesn't seem to be a standard amongst auto manufacturers. I don't believe gasoline is figured into payload; although it is figured into GVW and GCW.

The tongue weight does figure into payload.

In fact, the easiest way to calculate your future trailer is to see how much payload you have left after subtracting the weight of your family and dog and any cargo you carry.

Divide that number by 13% and that equals the heaviest trailer you can tow - fully loaded.

In you case 840/.13= 6,462lbs fully loaded.

Except, if you haven't weighed you vehicle, add in anything else in the truck.

So, maybe its more like 6,075lbs (790/.13).

Put it all together and it looks like to me that we need to consider something smaller than the 2604 Rockwood Ultralite that we fell in love with that has a dry weight posted on the door of about 5800 lbs. Either that, or get a different TV.

I really appreciate your guidance in understanding these numbers.

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by mtofell

Basically, I'm okay loading right up to the max by adding airbags and better tires than come stock. The airbags help prevent the rear from sagging and most people consider tires to be the weak link in most tow setups.

Airbags and better tires do not add to a vehicle's GVWR, or RAWR. A properly setup WDH should prevent sagging.

[Triguy]

Nancy, when I say max loaded weight of 6,000lbs, what I mean to say is:

Trailer weight (yellow sticker)
+ Cargo
+ Propane
+ Battery(ies)
+ Water
+ Food, beer and other essentials.

Many campers can easily load 500-1,000lbs to the yellow sticker. Some load much more. Its really personal and depends completely on you and your family.

[NancyTX]

Given that the term "MVCW" isn't familiar to people, I looked in the car manual again to see if there was any more enlightenment regarding its meaning.

The manual says the "weight your vehicle can carry is called the vehicle capacity weight and includes the weight of all occupants, cargo and and non-factory installed options." It says the Maximum Vehicle Capacity Weight (MVCW) listed on the car door should be used to "determine correct load limit." You do so by subtracting "the combined weight of the driver and passengers." The amount remaining, (in my case 840) is the "available amount of cargo and luggage load capacity." It does not say whether gasoline is considered "cargo". It does say that if towing a trailer, the available load capacity will be reduced, and then it refers you to another section of the manual where trailering weights and tongue weights are discussed. However, in that section of the manual there is no reference to "MVCW". It says (among a lot of other things) that you need to add the tongue weight to the GVW and ensure that tongue weight not cause the vehicle to exceed GVWR or RGAWR.

[Sgt. Schultz]

Hello - just a quick comment - due to the self levelling suspension / auto ride combined with with weight distributing hitch it will be the max axle weights that you need to watch I suggest that you get your real weights with and without the people and dog at a CAT scale then work back from the GVWR & axle weights leaving the MVCW out at this time.
.
My thanks for doing this extra work before heading out on the road BTW

[Herk7769]

OK, back. Was interupted by dinner (yea!) Dog issue (boo)

Here is what I was able to come up with using "payload" which I am more familiar with.

the 2008 GMC Denali
2008 - GMC Yukon Denali AWD 4dr

Trim Curb Weight: 5387.00
Base Trim Weight - Front: 2874.00
Base Trim Weight - Rear: 2513.00
Gross Axle Wt Rating - Front: 3550
Gross Axle Wt Rating - Rear: 4100
Curb Weight - Front: 2874
Curb Weight - Rear: 2513
Reserve Axle Capacity - Front: 676.00
Reserve Axle Capacity - Rear: 1587.00
As Spec'd Curb Weight: 5387.00
As Spec'd Payload: 1713.00
Maximum Payload Capacity: 1713.00
Gross Combined Wt Rating: 14000
Gross Axle Weight Rating: 7650.00
Curb Weight: 5387.00
Reserve Axle Capacity: 2263.00
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating: 7100.00

Dead Weight Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.: 5000
Dead Weight Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.: 500

Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt.: 7900
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt.: 1185

Camper
Rockwood 2604 Travel Trailer by Forest River, The Original RVWholesalers. New RV's & Parts Sales, Wholesale Dealer

Dry Weight 5228lbs
GVWR 6629lbs
Cargo Capacity 1363lbs
Hitch Weight 629lbs
Axle Weight 4599lbs
GCWR 14,000 - 6629 = 7371 > 7100
10% of 6629 = 662 < 1185
13% of 6629 = 861 < 1185
15% of 6629 = 995 < 1185

Using 10% excess capacity for towing and 13% optimum loading
Numbers in calculator:

1) 7100
2) 14000
3) 7900
4) 1185
5) 4100
6) blank
7) blank
8) 6629
9) blank
10) 10 (percent)
11) 13% (tongue ratio)

Max allowed trailer 6,900 pounds
Max tongue weight 897 based on 13% loading

Max with 10% cushion 6,210 pounds
Max reduced by 10% cushion 807 pounds.

807 pounds equals a 12.2% tongue load and well within safe parameters.

Payload available 1713

Negate gas and 150 pounds of driver (included in curb weight)

Hitch - 100 pounds
Family plus any extra for driver 500 pounds
Tongue load for maxed out trailer 900 pounds
1500 pounds still room for 213 pounds of stuff

Length

The generally accepted "Rule of Thumb" (certainly no "law") was developed by the RV Consumer Group and goes thusly:

For the first 110 inches of wheel base you get 20 feet of trailer.
For every 4 inches after you get 1 more foot.

RV Towing Tips

For your wheel base (116 inches) the "Rule of Thumb" is 21 and a half feet.

Your proposed camper is about 29 feet in length and maybe a tad long for your short wheel base.

IN MY OPINION, You can mitigate this somewhat by getting a 12,000 pound rated WD hitch with integrated sway control on both axis. Similar to the Equilizer brand that I am most familiar with.

[NancyTX]

Thanks so much! My take away from your post, and simplifying somewhat, is that for a 10% safety margin (and I want to be safe - the object here is to have fun, not worry) we should shoot for a loaded trailer weight of no more than 6210 pounds, and a tongue weight of no more than 807 pounds. We could get there with the Rockwood 2604 by packing it very lightly - maybe 400 lbs of stuff. And we will need to weigh it because it may be close.

If we do that, (hold the tongue weight to 807) it sounds like we will increase the ability to carry stuff in the vehicle itself. The available payload of 1713, reduced by hitch weight of 100 and tongue weight of 807, gives us room for 800 additional pounds in the car consisting of me, the dog, the rest of my husband (he weighs more than 150), my purse, etc. That is good news. Our dog is relieved to hear she wouldn't have to run along behind.

I have read other posts regarding length of the trailer compared to the car, and realize that could be an issue. My husband wants to try pulling the 2604 with the current car, however, to see how it goes. I love my Denali, and really want to keep it, but am reserving judgment on whether it will work. He has studied hitches some already and is planning on getting an Equalizer. Do you recommend the Equalizer 4 point or 2 point hitch? I also read a post about the difficulty of adjusting the hitch given the self leveling feature of our car. So that may take some learning too.

Thanks again so much for sharing your expertise. I imagine we will give the 2604 a try - knowing that we should weigh the whole thing - and also knowing that in the end we may go for a different TV.

[Herk7769]

IMO, it is easier to find a TV that you like that will do the job; than a camper you like that will do the job.

You are close enough to give it a go, IMO. I highly recommend the 12K 4 point hitch. It will transfer nicely if you get a different TV and/or camper in the future.

Just so you know, you can safely go up to your max capability.
It is just gonna be a bit of a bear on MPG.

[Triguy]

Just a quick thought. That MVCW number posted on the door frame sounds a lot like payload. So, what does she use? The published number or the stickered number?

I'm confused.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by Triguy

Just a quick thought. That MVCW number posted on the door frame sounds a lot like payload. So, what does she use? The published number or the stickered number?

I'm confused.

I don't know. I know how to do the calculations using the Curb weight, payload and GVWR.

I have no idea how to integrate that number or how it relates to GVWR (which is the same in both cases) and curb weight which is different if you subtract MVCW from the GVWR on the one hand and Payload from GVWR.

For example: GVWR 7100 - Payload 1713 = 5387 Trim Curb Weight
Curb weight includes 26 gallons of gas (157 pounds) and a 150 pound
driver.

Yet if you use the "MVCW":

GVWR 7100 - MVCW 1375 = 5725 Curb weight (a 338 pound difference.)

Could there be 338 pounds of options not included in the trim package?

Other than weighing it empty (heck it most likely need to be detailed anyway) except for a full tank of gas and driver (then adjust the ticket for the driver's weight over 150 pounds). See where that 338 pounds is located.