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Old 09-11-2019, 08:16 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Mudbug View Post
Ok so how do I use that to determine what is the heaviest TT I can tow and if I need a WDH or not.
Mudbug,

I don't think you're in bad shape with the set up you've got. No matter what, I would recommend using a WDH with integrated sway (brand and price are as touchy on this forum).

Here's the breakdown of what we know:

Truck:
Payload: 1947
GVWR: 7600
F GAWR: 3950
R GAWR: 4300

Trailer:
Dry tongue weight: 702 (12.7% of the dry weight)
Dry trailer weight: 5506
GVWR: 7373
12.7% of GVWR = 937 approximate loaded tongue weight

Let's say the WDH weighs 100 pounds.

So, based on your numbers that you provided:

1947-937-100 = 910 of remaining available payload. From 910 subtract, you, passengers, accessories, anything in the bed and anything in the cab and that will be your remaining payload in your truck.

Based on that, you will likely be fine towing your trailer with your current truck.

Here is a spreadsheet that I've used to help dial in my truck, trailer and hitch. Plug in your numbers and see how it goes for you.

Truck and Trailer Weight Calculator Spreadsheet

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:21 PM   #42
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Looks like your trailer can be up to about 8800 lbs fully loaded on the axles. I'd guess its 8500lb or less for the actual rating. Take 10-15% for hitch weight, assuming you fully load it. You've got 850-1275 lbs. You have a limit on dead weight on the hitch and a limit when using WDH. Typical dead weight numbers on a 1/4 ton were 500 lb, but I think I've seen 900lb recently. You most likely need to use a WDH to keep within truck axle weights. There will also be a WDH limit you need to look up but I would guess its not under the max tow rating.

So say you have around 12% on the hitch, depends on loading and you'll only know exactly by hitting the scales. So at around 12% you'll have about 1000 lb on the hitch. The WDH will move some weight to the trailer axle and some to the truck front axle, maybe 10% or so if properly installed. Your WDH probably weighs at least 50lb. So round numbers I'd guess you have 900lb or so put towards the cargo limit. This would give around 1000lb for people and cargo for a 1900 lb cargo limit. You are probably ok. If your trailer is around 6500lb empty(just a guess) and you only put a 1000lb in it you should be fine. If you are starting to push the trailer limit you need to get to the scales, like with the trailer lightly packed and no truck cargo, then you can probably get a better estimate on how close you are to the limits.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:32 PM   #43
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Looking good Mud ....
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:43 PM   #44
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Ok, so I have gone back and read all the post 3 times now. Clarkbre says in his example that 12,500 tow capacity would assume a 10 % hitch weight of 1250 lbs. That would leave me with 697 lbs for people and cargo. If my WDH IS 100 lbs then I would be left with 597 lbs.
That makes since to me. Then I found in the book. The hitch weight can be up to 800 lbs with out WDH. 801 to 1250 with a WDH. Am I getting this right ?
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:56 PM   #45
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That's about right, although maybe light on the hitch weight of 10%. If you move that just to 12% you have maybe 400lb or so for you and cargo. So even with your relatively high 1900 lb cargo rating you are going to be more limited by the cargo limit than the tow rating. Although if you have nothing else in the vehicle you could pick up a 12000 lb trailer and take it across town to your buddy who is too busy waxing his 2500 to pick up the trailer., with proper WDH of course.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:14 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by clarkbre View Post
Mudbug,

I don't think you're in bad shape with the set up you've got. No matter what, I would recommend using a WDH with integrated sway (brand and price are as touchy on this forum).

Here's the breakdown of what we know:

Truck:
Payload: 1947
GVWR: 7600
F GAWR: 3950
R GAWR: 4300

Trailer:
Dry tongue weight: 702 (12.7% of the dry weight)
Dry trailer weight: 5506
GVWR: 7373
12.7% of GVWR = 937 approximate loaded tongue weight

Let's say the WDH weighs 100 pounds.

So, based on your numbers that you provided:

1947-937-100 = 910 of remaining available payload. From 910 subtract, you, passengers, accessories, anything in the bed and anything in the cab and that will be your remaining payload in your truck.

Based on that, you will likely be fine towing your trailer with your current truck.

Here is a spreadsheet that I've used to help dial in my truck, trailer and hitch. Plug in your numbers and see how it goes for you.

Truck and Trailer Weight Calculator Spreadsheet

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.


Thanks you have definitely made it a lot easier for me to understand this now. I now know what to do when I go to the scales and what my goal is to balance the load. My WDH says in the book to measure the front fender above the wheel, with out the TT hooked up. Then with the TT hooked up but no WDH. Then again with the WDH hitched hooked up. From those measurements my front is high by one inch. According to the book I should adjust it to shift more weight to the front wheels. The guy at the RV place who installed the hitch for me said to leave it alone. He set it where it needs to be. I think the scales will help me decide if I should adjust it or do what he says.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:17 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkbre View Post
Mudbug,

I don't think you're in bad shape with the set up you've got. No matter what, I would recommend using a WDH with integrated sway (brand and price are as touchy on this forum).

Here's the breakdown of what we know:

Truck:
Payload: 1947
GVWR: 7600
F GAWR: 3950
R GAWR: 4300

Trailer:
Dry tongue weight: 702 (12.7% of the dry weight)
Dry trailer weight: 5506
GVWR: 7373
12.7% of GVWR = 937 approximate loaded tongue weight

Let's say the WDH weighs 100 pounds.

So, based on your numbers that you provided:

1947-937-100 = 910 of remaining available payload. From 910 subtract, you, passengers, accessories, anything in the bed and anything in the cab and that will be your remaining payload in your truck.

Based on that, you will likely be fine towing your trailer with your current truck.

Here is a spreadsheet that I've used to help dial in my truck, trailer and hitch. Plug in your numbers and see how it goes for you.

Truck and Trailer Weight Calculator Spreadsheet

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.


This X2 ☝️. Explains it pretty good in my opinion. Although you may need to get a 3500 diesel though
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:28 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mudbug View Post
Ok, so I have gone back and read all the post 3 times now. Clarkbre says in his example that 12,500 tow capacity would assume a 10 % hitch weight of 1250 lbs. That would leave me with 697 lbs for people and cargo. If my WDH IS 100 lbs then I would be left with 597 lbs.
That makes since to me. Then I found in the book. The hitch weight can be up to 800 lbs with out WDH. 801 to 1250 with a WDH. Am I getting this right ?
You're getting it.... but really need to forget about the mythical 12,500. As stated before, that is achievable with a very specific, empty truck, 150 lbs driver and a 12,500 trailer with exactly 10% tongue weight.

Focus on the Vibe 261BHS that you're going to be towing.

Its loaded tongie weight will exceed 800 on your hitch....buy and use a WDH.

The trailer axles are rated at 4,400 a piece....but the trailer is only rated for 7,373 (the pic shows that). Fully loaded, the trailer will likely weigh right around 7400 pounds total.

Another idea is load up and head to a scale with your truck and trailer. Find out what each axle weighs and that will help guide you on WDH adjustments.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:54 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by clarkbre View Post
Here is a spreadsheet that I've used to help dial in my truck, trailer and hitch. Plug in your numbers and see how it goes for you.

Truck and Trailer Weight Calculator Spreadsheet

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
Hey, it could be me but that link didnít work.

Iím going to shoot you a PM also.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:56 PM   #50
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Thanks, I appreciate everyoneís input in here.

I did get the WDH. I was surprised they didnít push it on me but said I didnít have to get it. After figuring this out I am really glad I insisted on getting it. I really like the one I got too. I donít have to take off any sway bars to back up or deal with any chains.

I now realize I might not have needed It when I picked up the TT. But after I put all my stuff in it, I will definitely need it.

As for needing a 2500 or 3500. I might look cool driving it but my 1500 get 23 miles to the gallon when I am not towing

Have a great night and I hope I meet some of you in a camp ground one day.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:02 PM   #51
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Hey, it could be me but that link didnít work.

Iím going to shoot you a PM also.

Give the below link a try. it should work.

SPREADSHEET
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:11 PM   #52
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I saw this thread and thought I would add a few questions that I have. I have a 2015 1500 CC 4X4 short bed. It has 342 gears GVWR 7600 payload of 1982 GCWR 17,700 and max trailering weight of 11,800. These looked good so I bought a Prime Time Crusader Lite 28RL fifth wheel. Empty weight of 7920 CCC of 2065 pin weight 1322. Loaded it up for a two week trip and hit a CAT Scale first thing.
Truck without trailer
steer axle 3600
drive axle 2760
total 6360
truck and trailer
steer axle 3580
drive axle 3380
trailer axle 7260
gross weight 15320
well below 17,700 and trailer weight 15320-6360=8960 well below 11,800

Now for pin weight 8960-7260= 1700 1700-1322=378 more than should be.
leaves only 282 for payload but need about 450. RRGAWR is over by 180.

Am I doing the numbers right?

Last thing white sticker on trailer a has GAWR's of 4400 a piece but GVWR 10065
These do not seem to match up.

Thanks for your help with my confusion.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:55 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by livin the good life View Post
I saw this thread and thought I would add a few questions that I have. I have a 2015 1500 CC 4X4 short bed. It has 342 gears GVWR 7600 payload of 1982 GCWR 17,700 and max trailering weight of 11,800. These looked good so I bought a Prime Time Crusader Lite 28RL fifth wheel. Empty weight of 7920 CCC of 2065 pin weight 1322. Loaded it up for a two week trip and hit a CAT Scale first thing.
Truck without trailer
steer axle 3600
drive axle 2760
total 6360
truck and trailer
steer axle 3580
drive axle 3380
trailer axle 7260
gross weight 15320
well below 17,700 and trailer weight 15320-6360=8960 well below 11,800

Now for pin weight 8960-7260= 1700 1700-1322=378 more than should be.
leaves only 282 for payload but need about 450. RRGAWR is over by 180.

Am I doing the numbers right?

Last thing white sticker on trailer a has GAWR's of 4400 a piece but GVWR 10065
These do not seem to match up.

Thanks for your help with my confusion.
No. Your tongue/Pin is 600 lbs. Your truck axles add up to 6960, subtract your empty truck weight of 6360 and you see that the truck "gained" 600 lbs. That is the weight on the truck now that the trailer and WDH are in play. You have 8.2% tongue weight.

You have a 1,900 lb payload, your using 600 lbs of it. You have 1,300 lbs of truck payload yet to tap into. I would drop a link on the WDH chain if I could, you might have to adjust the head angle to get in the middle.... but your not at the 10% tongue weight that is universally accepted as the desired min TW.

Your tandem trailer axles are seeing 3630 lbs each. You have 770 lbs per trailer axle in headroom yet. Go grab your lead ball collection and load them in!
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:45 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by livin the good life View Post
I saw this thread and thought I would add a few questions that I have. I have a 2015 1500 CC 4X4 short bed. It has 342 gears GVWR 7600 payload of 1982 GCWR 17,700 and max trailering weight of 11,800. These looked good so I bought a Prime Time Crusader Lite 28RL fifth wheel. Empty weight of 7920 CCC of 2065 pin weight 1322. Loaded it up for a two week trip and hit a CAT Scale first thing.
Truck without trailer
steer axle 3600
drive axle 2760
total 6360
truck and trailer
steer axle 3580
drive axle 3380
trailer axle 7260
gross weight 15320
well below 17,700 and trailer weight 15320-6360=8960 well below 11,800

Now for pin weight 8960-7260= 1700 1700-1322=378 more than should be.
leaves only 282 for payload but need about 450. RRGAWR is over by 180.

Am I doing the numbers right?

Last thing white sticker on trailer a has GAWR's of 4400 a piece but GVWR 10065
These do not seem to match up.

Thanks for your help with my confusion.
Question how can drive axle be less than steer hooked up with fifth wheel pin weight on it plus hitch ... Thanks
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:48 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by livin the good life View Post
I saw this thread and thought I would add a few questions that I have. I have a 2015 1500 CC 4X4 short bed. It has 342 gears GVWR 7600 payload of 1982 GCWR 17,700 and max trailering weight of 11,800. These looked good so I bought a Prime Time Crusader Lite 28RL fifth wheel. Empty weight of 7920 CCC of 2065 pin weight 1322. Loaded it up for a two week trip and hit a CAT Scale first thing.
Truck without trailer
steer axle 3600
drive axle 2760
total 6360
truck and trailer
steer axle 3580
drive axle 3380
trailer axle 7260
gross weight 15320
well below 17,700 and trailer weight 15320-6360=8960 well below 11,800

Now for pin weight 8960-7260= 1700 1700-1322=378 more than should be.
leaves only 282 for payload but need about 450. RRGAWR is over by 180.

Am I doing the numbers right?

Last thing white sticker on trailer a has GAWR's of 4400 a piece but GVWR 10065
These do not seem to match up.

Thanks for your help with my confusion.
Here's hopefully a more clear breakdown of the numbers:

Truck only:
Front 3600
Rear 2760
Truck weight 6360
GVWR 7600 - Truck weight 6360 = 1240 available payload

Truck w/ trailer attached:
Front 3580
Rear 3380
Truck weight 6960
GVWR 7600 - Truck w/ trailer attached 6960 = 640 available payload

Trailer axles 7260
Each axle carrying 3630
Pin weight = Rear truck axle w/ trailer 3380 - rear truck axle, no trailer 2760
3380-2760 = 620 pin weight

Now that I typed up and reviewed this response....your numbers don't add up at all. The weight of your trailer 620+7260 is less than what you state your dry trailer weight is. What model trailer do you own?
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:58 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livin the good life View Post
I saw this thread and thought I would add a few questions that I have. I have a 2015 1500 CC 4X4 short bed. It has 342 gears GVWR 7600 payload of 1982 GCWR 17,700 and max trailering weight of 11,800. These looked good so I bought a Prime Time Crusader Lite 28RL fifth wheel. Empty weight of 7920 CCC of 2065 pin weight 1322. Loaded it up for a two week trip and hit a CAT Scale first thing.
Truck without trailer
steer axle 3600
drive axle 2760
total 6360
truck and trailer
steer axle 3580
drive axle 3380
trailer axle 7260
gross weight 15320
well below 17,700 and trailer weight 15320-6360=8960 well below 11,800

Now for pin weight 8960-7260= 1700 1700-1322=378 more than should be.
leaves only 282 for payload but need about 450. RRGAWR is over by 180.

Am I doing the numbers right?

Last thing white sticker on trailer a has GAWR's of 4400 a piece but GVWR 10065
These do not seem to match up.

Thanks for your help with my confusion.
You should be confused. Here's where I'm starting - the actual specs for your fifth wheel:


I loaded these into TowingPlanner.com:


The pin weight is essentially the difference between the rear axle with and without the trailer (3380 - 2760 = 620). But this doesn't match the specs whatsoever for this trailer.

The trailer weight is then the sum of the trailer axle weight and pin weight (7260 + 620 = 7,880). This also doesn't match specs of the trailer.

I just don't know where the extra weight went. But something's off.

You need to re-weigh.
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:37 PM   #57
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larry 0071

Will these numbers work with a fifth wheel? It is not a TT with a WDH
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:40 PM   #58
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frank 4711

Not sure about rear being less. Those were the weights from the CAT scale
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:47 PM   #59
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clarkbre

The 7920 is from the sticker in the entry door jam, which if I understand is the weight for this particular trailer from the factory. It is a Prime time Crusader Lite 28RL fifth wheel.
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:50 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by ependydad View Post
At the risk of immediately derailing the thread:

Whatís your source on that?

What law? State and statute number, please?

(Mind you, Iím a card carrying member of the ďweights matterĒ club. I upgraded my dually to a newer one with higher capacities when I upgraded trailers. But, Iíve not really found positive proof that the manufacturerís Weight ratings are legal guidelines; especially when you can often register your truck for higher or lower with some states.)


Ok so I saw a CHP officer and asked him about this topic. He told me the manufacturer engineers determine what the vehicles capabilities and capacities are. He said payload or a vehicleís weight carrying capacity is GVWR minus the vehicleís curb weight. He said upgrades such as bigger heavier tires can even drop payload. Every vehicle had a payload capacity and you cannot legally go over that number. I told him several people on this forum are looking for more exact codes or statutes and he was going to contact the motor carrier division and get back to me. He did say though that if thereís ever an accident in California where someone dies, I can bet there will be a criminal investigation which will include everything from drugs/alcohol, distracted driving, speed or unsafe vehicle loading especially if Iím towing. But he also sounded like as long as no one dies, the most youíre at risk of is being sued. Last, he warned me about modifying my tow vehicle and thinking I can tow more because I upgrade. He said by modifying my vehicle Iím essentially becoming the manufacturer. This can cause legal problems, but in no way does it increase any manufacturerís limits. Then he started question me about mine.........
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