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Old 01-28-2019, 03:07 PM   #1
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Interesting Discovery about GVWR/Payload

So, having been involved in various GVWR and payload discussions through the years, there seems to be a prevalent idea that the ratings are based upon engineering principles and must be adhered to. I've encountered various things that have caused me to believe there are definitely other forces involved in setting many of those numbers, and ran across something interesting recently. While researching the Ford F350 and F450, I discovered that they have the same GVWR. It appears as though once you go over 14K GVWR, you are no longer considered a Class 3 vehicle. So, even though the F450 is much stronger structurally, it actually has LESS payload than the 350 because of the additional weight. Not sure how one could still argue that the payload ratings are always based on actual engineering principles when it's perfectly clear that's not the case. Just curious what others would think about this.
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Old 01-29-2019, 10:40 PM   #2
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Not sure what you mean found this right column is 450 left 350Click image for larger version

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Old 01-29-2019, 10:52 PM   #3
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Interesting enough i read on another forum that payload is actually based on how much the could carry before the emissions crapped out. Which would explain why payload rarely equals gvw less curb weight. Who knows......
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Old 01-29-2019, 10:53 PM   #4
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Sorry, how much the tow vehicle can carry
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Old 01-30-2019, 12:34 AM   #5
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Ok, let me throw this into the mix.

It's commonly accepted and verified by many a dealership service tech that the physical difference in frame and capacity between 2500/3500 and 250/350 is basically an extra leaf in the springs for the higher capacity (all other things such as engine, transmission, etc.... being equal between the platforms). And the door stickers are based on the weakest link in the chain which is always the tires.

That being said, how many of you are still riding on the factory tires which are usually not the best brand/model and capacity? Most of us have by nature upgraded to much better quality and higher capacity tires as the original wore or needed replacement. So if the door sticker is based on the tires and they are replaced by higher capacity rated ones, then the door sticker is no longer correct.

For example, there is over 1,000 pounds difference in capacity per tire on the factory stock tires that came on my GMC vs the upgraded tires I have on there now. Yes I know that does not magically add 4,000 in extra capacity, but my point is the tires are no longer the weakest link in my situation and that sticker no longer truly accurate.

Go look at your axle capacity sticker and tire numbers and pull the capacity for the stock tires that came on your tow vehicle. I will bet you find that the "capacity" is directly related to the total tire carrying capacity as the weakest link in the chain. Hardest part is figuring out what the stock tires were model wise unless yours are still on the rig. If they are, look at some quality potential replacement tire capacities are, and they are probably more. As soon as any part of the equation, be it tires, air bags, or anything else is changed, then the math on tow capacity changes if the weakest part of the equation is upgraded. That is also why the tow ratings for bumper pull vs WD hitch are different with the same vehicle, as the weight on each axle is more distributed. So it's not based on this engine and transmission can pull X and only X which would also explain the 350 vs 450 example in the original post and the chart in Moose's response. Look at the tires and frame on the 450. There is the difference even though the engine and transmission are the same.

Not recommending anyone tow over weight, but I'm just saying the devil is in the details.... And manufacturers are all about saving money but CYA on the numbers matching exactly what left the factory.
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Old 01-30-2019, 05:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dward51 View Post
Ok, let me throw this into the mix.

It's commonly accepted and verified by many a dealership service tech that the physical difference in frame and capacity between 2500/3500 and 250/350 is basically an extra leaf in the springs for the higher capacity (all other things such as engine, transmission, etc.... being equal between the platforms). And the door stickers are based on the weakest link in the chain which is always the tires.

That being said, how many of you are still riding on the factory tires which are usually not the best brand/model and capacity? Most of us have by nature upgraded to much better quality and higher capacity tires as the original wore or needed replacement. So if the door sticker is based on the tires and they are replaced by higher capacity rated ones, then the door sticker is no longer correct.

For example, there is over 1,000 pounds difference in capacity per tire on the factory stock tires that came on my GMC vs the upgraded tires I have on there now. Yes I know that does not magically add 4,000 in extra capacity, but my point is the tires are no longer the weakest link in my situation and that sticker no longer truly accurate.

Go look at your axle capacity sticker and tire numbers and pull the capacity for the stock tires that came on your tow vehicle. I will bet you find that the "capacity" is directly related to the total tire carrying capacity as the weakest link in the chain. Hardest part is figuring out what the stock tires were model wise unless yours are still on the rig. If they are, look at some quality potential replacement tire capacities are, and they are probably more. As soon as any part of the equation, be it tires, air bags, or anything else is changed, then the math on tow capacity changes if the weakest part of the equation is upgraded. That is also why the tow ratings for bumper pull vs WD hitch are different with the same vehicle, as the weight on each axle is more distributed. So it's not based on this engine and transmission can pull X and only X which would also explain the 350 vs 450 example in the original post and the chart in Moose's response. Look at the tires and frame on the 450. There is the difference even though the engine and transmission are the same.

Not recommending anyone tow over weight, but I'm just saying the devil is in the details.... And manufacturers are all about saving money but CYA on the numbers matching exactly what left the factory.
A couple problems here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dward51 View Post
.."commonly accepted and verified by many a dealership service tech"
Hard to believe with the different part numbers right in front of them. What service tech told you this?

While I can't verify for every year...there are differences in rear axles between modern 3/4 and 1 tons for both Ford and GM. (I'm not linking any GM data but they also have differences -I didn't check Ram)
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...rear-axle.html

My truck does not have a different tow rating when using a WDH. The truck (hitch) is rated for up to 2000lbs tongue weight with or without a WDH and the max tow rating is the same.
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:13 AM   #7
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Along the lines of the 450 moving out of the truck weight classes.. From my end and thoughts:

A truck that is 10k lbs or less is not considered a commercial motor vehicle in the eyes of the federal DOT regulations, over this and you are in the realm of a CMV (this will depend on state of residence / use of the vehicle).

So a 250 / 2500 is almost always rated at 10,000 lbs the 350 / 3500 and up are always over (now I know some people ALWAYS need to be right and I am aware there are trucks rated differently in certain ages and cases but this is for most). Depending on your state of residence moving into a vehicle over 10k lbs MAKES you a CMV even if you never use it for commerce and required a CMV tag or increased fees.

Insurance company will often also charge / make you have a commercial account if you have a larger 450 type truck but will not if you have a 350. In PA (really in ALL states) if the trailer is over 10,000lbs and the truck / trailer combined weight is over 26,ooolbs and used in commerce you need a CDL-A. The same holds true in PA if you are not commercial but meet the above you'd need a NCDL-A (or B depending on other things but not what we are talking about here). So by having a 2500 / 3500 SRW I am fine, get a 350 duelly (depending on configuration) and now I potentially need a NCDL-A to drive my truck and 5er.

I will not say if you take my 2500 (10k GVWR) to 11k lbs I will explode.. But legally I am over my max GVWR. Last 250 I had that was over weight by 5,000lbs cost the driver $3,000 for being over weight.
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:31 AM   #8
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Im trying to find out what makes the silverado 2500 different from the 3500
So far the axles are different and it has extra leaf springs.

I have a 15 2500 6.0 payload is 26xx
Tires are 3195 lbs each
Truck weighs 5650

This summer im probably gonna be over by a couple hundred pounds with the golf cart. I have airlift 5000 and will need new tires by the time i have to travel and gonna go to 124 load rated tires.

How do i calculate the gvwr to see if where i am at. Door sticker doesnt show axle ratings, just shows tire pressure and payload.
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:48 AM   #9
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A few points:


1. Not sure what the post showing HP and TQ numbers was about??? I didn't mention them and they have nothing to do with payload.


2. I couldn't care less about the legality. Just pointing to the obvious that GVWR and by default Payload numbers are NOT purely engineering driven. There are obviously other factors at play.


3. Can't speak to the current 2500 and 3500 trucks and am only familiar with the Fords. But I know for a fact that my F250 with the camper package was identical in every way to the SRW F350. I spent a lot of time researching part numbers and even inspected many of the components. I think people sometimes try to compare 2500 to 3500DRW components to argue this isn't the case.



4. There are other examples to prove my point. For example, prior to the aluminum bodied F150s, the MaxTow gave you a 7700 GVWR. After going to the aluminum body, they now limit that to 7100. What was weakened? Ford touted a stronger frame with more high tensile steel. If someone could point to what Ford changed that would make the new truck structurally incapable of safely weighing the same as the old truck I'd love to hear it. Having become educated on the classes and GVWR limitations, the most plausible explanation is this: The F250 is limited to a 10K GVWR for CMV/registration purposes as others have pointed out. That puts you at 2500ish payload for a typical SCrew 4x4 diesel. Probably 3500ish for the gas version. If Ford had left the MaxTow F150 GVWR at 7700, you'd have the typical F150 SCrew with a payload coming in around 2400ish pounds. If they'd left the HDPP at 8200 GVWR (it was dropped as well), a typical SCrew would give you in the 3000 range worth of payload. It seems obvious it was a numbers game where Ford couldn't have the F150 in direct competition with the F250 on payload.







There have also been instances where a manufacturer has significantly changed a GVWR with ZERO changes made to the truck.
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Old 01-30-2019, 09:11 AM   #10
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I tend to agree that in many cases the numbers that are assigned to the 1/2 tons are purposely decreased to prevent the half ton's abilities from surpassing that of a 3/4 ton. The 1/2 tons (all trucks really) continue to get more capable, but the laws are not changing with them. So the manufacturer cant increase the capability of the 3/4 ton because it then becomes "commercial", and since the 3/4 ton has to stay below that threshold, that means the 1/2 ton numbers are purposely suppressed.
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