Level towing of a 5th wheel?

[5picker]

Originally Posted by ard58

Lowering the truck is just like raising it. You change the factory set driveline angles. What this means is you will wear out the U Joints sooner, and possibly create a vibration. Now I have been following this thread and have not seen anyone advise to check the suspension, and or, 5th wheel placement on your truck. Reason I say this is I had a 5er and pulled with a 1/2 ton and it squatted some but nothing like what your saying yours does. The hitch should be centered over axle, or a few inches forward, at most. I believe on a 1 ton it shouldn't make that much difference if it is behind the axle a few inches. From what your describing it sounds like you have a suspension issue. I would take to dealer and at the very least compare spring set up with another 1 ton. Ask questions cause it should not do this. IMO. Good luck.

Post # 45 and beyond talk about hitch placement in the truck and many posts talk about suspension. I'm confused by your statement?

[acadianbob]

On the Ford Truck Enthusiast Forum, there are many who have lowered the back of their Super Duty by putting in smaller blocks. There have been no reports of vibration or drivetrain issues. This mod is done by many who pull 5er's because of the leveling issue. Most lower the rear end about 1 1/2 to 2 inches. It seems to be a viable and inexpensive modification.

[5picker]

Originally Posted by acadianbob

On the Ford Truck Enthusiast Forum, there are many who have lowered the back of their Super Duty by putting in smaller blocks. There have been no reports of vibration or drivetrain issues. This mod is done by many who pull 5er's because of the leveling issue. Most lower the rear end about 1 1/2 to 2 inches. It seems to be a viable and inexpensive modification.

I agree.
I've not read/heard of one single driveline problem from the shorter blocks.

[ard58]

I stand corrected. You are correct somewhat, but most still talk about trailer height or air bags. I still say a 1 ton should not squat that much. As I stated, he should go to dealer and compare apples to apples. Talk to dealer people about his issue being OP said he has 2017 F350.

[acadianbob]

Originally Posted by ard58

I still say a 1 ton should not squat that much. As I stated, he should go to dealer and compare apples to apples.

You are right about that. That much squat doesn't seem right.

[Mr. Dan]

Originally Posted by acadianbob

You are right about that. That much squat doesn't seem right.

I still have a feeling the pin weight is much higher than the brochure says... and possibly enough to cause this excessive squat.

[BGKirkham]

Originally Posted by Cujo7240

Hete are sime pics of my 5th wheel hitch mounted in my 2017 F350:

I’m a relative newbie, so I’m certainly no expert, but based on your last picture it looks like your hitch is too far back. It could also be an illusion based on camera angle. Assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that the rear axle is centered in the wheel well. The pin should be a little bit in front of the axle. As the truck squats when you apply the load, the center of gravity will shift rearward and having the pin behind the axle only exacerbates the problem.

[brookstone345sa]

Been following this with great interest as I am going to purchase new F350 in the spring.
Does anyone know if I order a truck with 5th wheel package installed if that would change any of the problems this person is having?
Does a factory install have any different suspension items to address this item?
I know I can get the frame kit installed at the dealer for the puck system but would factory install be a different system

[5picker]

Originally Posted by brookstone345sa

Been following this with great interest as I am going to purchase new F350 in the spring.
Does anyone know if I order a truck with 5th wheel package installed if that would change any of the problems this person is having?
Does a factory install have any different suspension items to address this item?
I know I can get the frame kit installed at the dealer for the puck system but would factory install be a different system

If you are asking if the suspension is different because you get the factory puck system, no it is not. The factory puck option is the mounting bracketry and puck components only, no suspension modifications.

The suspension components will change based on options like 'Camper Package' and 'Snow Plow Prep" etc.

[Cujo7240]

I found a interesting thread on the Dieselstop.com forum that seems related to our discussion here. Specifically, many here on this forum seemed shocked when I wrote that my 2017 F350 was squatting substantially when I hooked up my 2017 Wildcat (~10K lbs).

FordWilly wrote:
"This morning I stopped by the Ford dealer to see if they had any 2017's in stock to look, sit, measure etc. They had quite a few of them including 2 duallys. I brought my tape measure. At the back corner my stock 2011 dually measured 54" ground to top of rear bed corner. The 2017 dually measured 59" five inches taller than my 11. The 17 single wheel I measures was several inches higher than the 17 dually or roughly 8 inches higher than my 11 dually. Wow, what a huge height leap.

Now I got into a conversation about this issue with the fleet/order man and he tried to explain the 5ver/gooseneck towing height issue this way. He said that the new 17's have a much softer ride suspension that will allow a much greater "set down" when a heavy trailer is loaded down on that suspension. bringing it way down to the level point. --- Dont know how true that is or if it was just the salesman in him. The only way we will know for sure I think is by the new buyer feedback on this issue."

[18CrewDually]

It makes sense because one of the things people say about the f150 is the car-like ride. I'm sure Ford would like Super duty owners to say that too. Before you know it the saying "The thing rides like a truck" will be a thing of the past.

[Cujo7240]

Originally Posted by 05CrewDually

It makes sense because one of the things people say about the f150 is the car-like ride. I'm sure Ford would like Super duty owners to say that too. Before you know it the saying "The thing rides like a truck" will be a thing of the past.

I know what you mean. I bought the F350 because I wanted a heavy-duty truck not some watered down suspension that drives like a car! I guess they didn't do their homework if thought that higher truck with a softer suspension would be beneficial to 5th wheel owners, since my truck is still too high for level towing of my 5th wheel and my headlights are now pointing into people's eyes when I tow!

[Murbella7]

Originally Posted by Cujo7240

Some here did say that I either had to raise my RV or get a shorter tow vehicle and I think someone may have suggested shorter blocks for my truck.
I really didn't want to change my trucks ride height, but my wife would probably like the idea. Are there any negative consequences to my truck if I were to lower the truck by 2", by installing shorter blocks?

I have been towing my 10m (34') long 28RL with the long box Silverado with its 4" lift for 2 years and 40,000+ km and over some pretty ordinary (terrible) Australian outback roads. The van used to ride high at the nose (could be about 6" or even more) because of the height of the hitch but it has never effected the ride or the tyre wear, that I could tell. Yes I had a tyre explode but that was due more to my ignorance of tyre loadings and pressures at the time (I have learnt a lot since then) than ride attitude. Since that event I up-sized my wheels to 16" so I could use a better higher load bearing tyre, which also leveled out the rig a bit more as a by-product.

Remember that the axles/spring arrangements allow for a fair amount of forward/rear pitching and rolling. Unless your nose-up attitude is extreme, I can't see it being a concern. You will notice if its 'extreme' because the tail of your van will be getting close to the tarmac. I would think that over time, the load and wear would even out across the two axles.

The images here show the (small) difference the up-sized tyres made to the level. The 1st is before and the 3rd is after. I included the 2nd image (before) just for fun and to show off one of a series of painted wheat silos we have here in central Victoria.

If anyone has some good data on why the level is critical, I would be very interested because I would hate it if my assumptions and scant knowledge are wrong and I am doing (other/more) damage to my rig.

[otrtrucker]

One thing that I forgot about is weight distribution. Since you already have air springs, and I presume they are properly inflated. Check the weight distribution of the "stuff" in the trailer. Too much weight in the front will squat the truck more.
Be careful though, because too much weight in the rear will lift the rear of the truck and cause dangerous handling.
Just a thought.

[FrankG]

Murbella7

Greetings, it is always refreshing to get input from down under. I was a member of a Spyder MC forum and we had several from Australia as active members, there input was invaluable. Keep the pictures coming our way.

I think you answered your own question on towing level. Upgrading your tyres solved the problem. With proper upgraded tires you can tow a little nose high without issue. The original ones, as provided, can't take the small additional stress when running nose high and owners suffer a higher rate of failures.

[PhoneDude 8289]

Originally Posted by Murbella7

I have been towing my 10m (34') long 28RL with the long box Silverado with its 4" lift for 2 years and 40,000+ km and over some pretty ordinary (terrible) Australian outback roads. The van used to ride high at the nose (could be about 6" or even more) because of the height of the hitch but it has never effected the ride or the tyre wear, that I could tell. Yes I had a tyre explode but that was due more to my ignorance of tyre loadings and pressures at the time (I have learnt a lot since then) than ride attitude. Since that event I up-sized my wheels to 16" so I could use a better higher load bearing tyre, which also leveled out the rig a bit more as a by-product.

Remember that the axles/spring arrangements allow for a fair amount of forward/rear pitching and rolling. Unless your nose-up attitude is extreme, I can't see it being a concern. You will notice if its 'extreme' because the tail of your van will be getting close to the tarmac. I would think that over time, the load and wear would even out across the two axles.

The images here show the (small) difference the up-sized tyres made to the level. The 1st is before and the 3rd is after. I included the 2nd image (before) just for fun and to show off one of a series of painted wheat silos we have here in central Victoria.

If anyone has some good data on why the level is critical, I would be very interested because I would hate it if my assumptions and scant knowledge are wrong and I am doing (other/more) damage to my rig.

Looks like those 16" wheels and tires did a good job of bringing the rig up to almost level. Great pics, the painted wheat silo is awesome.

[Rich5117]

acadianbob, you are correct. After purchasing my new F350 my 33IK was what I thought 5 inches nose high. Ran up to dealer had their tech look at it. I consider him a great RV tech, before I say anything else.

He told me two ways to really determine how bad the condition is. The one I mentioned above in this post. The second I described in a post under Cedar Creek.

The tech measured the total length of the springs on the RV then put a 8 foot level on the frame with the middle of the level in the middle of the springs. The level was brought down to level at the front then measured. In 8 foot it was 3/16 heavy out of level. The tech told me if the measurement is less than 1 inch it is nothing to worry about. I asked him has he ever had any over an inch out, his reply was yes but most were trucks with high lift kits.

As it turned out in using his second method my true nose high was only 3 inches. They told me with the EZ flex system to not worry about how things set. But me being me I wanted to try to get it better as it turned out I could move my pin box up, but a hole was missing, Dealer got permission to drill hole from Lippert, brought RV down almost 2 inches. Not gonna sweat the rest.

[otrtrucker]

Glad that you could get it resolved to your satisfaction.

[Rich5117]

Cujo7240, To answer your question about consequences of lowering your truck. The answer is no it is not a problem. This was an option I looked at as well. My sister is a Service Advisor at our local Ford Dealer. Ford can get a kit that can be installed using 2 inch blocks instead of the almost 3 1/2 inch blocks that come on the new trucks. I am not sure whose block kit they are using.

Originally the trucks came with a 2 inch block under the springs. But a lot of trucks had the drivers side sag after several years, Fords answer was to remove the old blocks and put in the larger ones.

[18CrewDually]

Folks keep commenting on lower lift blocks in the rear BUT that would increase the OP's problem. His truck is squatting too low in the rear, making his headlights pointing to the sky. Lower blocks is NOT the answer. He needs adjustable airbags to "tune" it or lower the front end of his truck.
To help, so far he has ordered 16" wheels and tires to lift the 5er since it is riding high in the nose.
So he has 2 problems.
Squatting REAR of truck.
5er is nose high.
Hope this is clear.
If I'm wrong chime in Cujo.