Level towing of a 5th wheel?

[ard58]

Originally Posted by larrytbm

There is just no way that a 10k lb Wildcat that is EMPTY can have a pin weight that is too much for an F350. I can "buy" the idea that Ford is using softer primary springs for a nicer ride. OP is probably not down to the overload spring with the Wildcat yet.

Probably need to take truck, and trailer, to dealer and have them check the headlight aiming situation. They have the equipment to adjust properly.
I just cant get past the F350 squatting that much. Even though there were posts on car like riding. I was parked next to a Chevy 3500 at the feed mill last week. He had about 2500# of feed on the back of his truck, and was still loading, and I noticed that the suspension was still about 1" away from contacting the overload springs. Now you would think that both Ford and Chevy 1 tons would have similar suspensions. JMO

[Cujo7240]

The payload capacity of my F350 SD 4x4 SB Diesel is spec'd to be 3750lbs.

[Murbella7]

Originally Posted by Cujo7240

There really is no way to shift more weight behind the axles on my 5th Wheel layout, since the only storage location behind the axles on my RV are three over head cabinets above the pull out sofa. All the other storage locations are either over the axles or forward of the axles.
Oh I just remembered, I do have a rear outside refrigerator compartment behind the axles, I guess I could load it full of beer to see if it helps balance the rig.

And that is something you really don't want to. The weight should stay over of just in front of the axle.

[Murbella7]

Originally Posted by 5picker

Heck, I've got folks flashing their lights at me (unloaded) with my 2017 F-250 Super Duty.
These trucks sit higher. I even checked and aimed them down a little but still get flashed.

Maybe they are flashing because you have something flapping about that you can't see, like one of the kids or your dog stowing-away in the tub.

[larrytbm]

Originally Posted by Murbella7

And that is something you really don't want to. The weight should stay over of just in front of the axle.

Yet toyhaulers like mine can carry several thousand pounds of toys, all behind the axles, and pin weight is still enough for stable towing.

[larrytbm]

Originally Posted by Cujo7240

From the limited research I've done so far, the Air Lift air bag system I want will not work if I swap in 2" lower lift blocks in my Truck.

Really? I checked Air Lift and Firestone, both apply the same part number for both F250 and F350 truck applications. Yet my understanding is the F250 uses the shorter blocks that you would be swapping to.

[Cujo7240]

Originally Posted by larrytbm

Really? I checked Air Lift and Firestone, both apply the same part number for both F250 and F350 truck applications. Yet my understanding is the F250 uses the shorter blocks that you would be swapping to.

That was what the customer service rep told me, but it wouldn't be the 1st time I've received wrong information from someone . Many people in these customer service centers are usually working from a play book and if you ask a question not in their play book they are lost. Some may say they don't know while others may just guess.

[Murbella7]

Originally Posted by larrytbm

Yet toyhaulers like mine can carry several thousand pounds of toys, all behind the axles, and pin weight is still enough for stable towing.

That may be so, but is it the right way? Everything I have read about 5th wheel trailers and hitches say the weight of the pin should be about 1" (or so) forward of the rear axle. This design directive was to ensure the majority of the pin weight was distributed more evenly across the centre of the tug.

[otrtrucker]

Originally Posted by larrytbm

Really? I checked Air Lift and Firestone, both apply the same part number for both F250 and F350 truck applications. Yet my understanding is the F250 uses the shorter blocks that you would be swapping to.

I have a Dodge Ram 2500. The only difference between mine, and the 3500 SRW, is that the 3500 SRW has an overload spring added to the rear suspension spring pack. I put Air Lift air springs (bags) on my truck, and it solved my squat issue. I have the onboard compressor, so I can add or release air pressure as needed for towing my 40' fiver, or running empty.

[Cujo7240]

Originally Posted by Islander

In my earlier post I brought up a suggestion of taking your truck into a Spring / Suspension shop to see what they might suggest.

However, it seems you would rather experiment with blocks, tires , wheels and bags.... this might get you down the road but still with a nose high truck... at a cost... and not to mention (again) how is the truck going to steer (?)

IMO these newer trucks are coming with a softer primary leaf spring, just so owners enjoy a softer ride unloaded.
This must be the main problem regarding the 'squatting'.

A spring shop could easily install a heavier leaf or an additional overload leaf to keep the truck level under load.
Yup... you may loose the 'car cushion ride' in your truck, but it will tow properly, level, and safely.

I also agree with a previous post that you need a TrailAir Pinbox ... it will help take the 'slam' out if you pull with it squatting like that.

Good luck
Islander

Actually, I bought this F350 Diesel truck for it's heavy duty suspension and extra towing capacity, so I would not have to do anything to the suspension and to be able to tow pretty much anything I wanted without any issues. Really not happy that I'm now back in this situation that I thought would no longer be an issue with this F350.
Previously I've owned many 1/2-ton pickups and like clock work, I ended up doing upgrades to them to make them better in the load carrying and towing department. I've added helper springs, air bag systems, and on my last truck I did actually went to a suspension shop and had them add a couple of leaf springs to my trucks rear suspension to eliminate the sag when I towed my Utility & Travel Trailers.
The other issue is this truck is only about 3 months old and I really didn't want to do anything to major to the truck while it's still under warranty.

[Rich5117]

Cujo7240, I could not agree more with your post of buying a F350 because of the towing capacity and suspension. I did the same thing. What's really disappointing is Ford raised the payload by about 300 lbs just due to the aluminum body, I guess they forgot to up the spring rate a few hundred pounds. It seems we who tow are in the minority in what we do with our trucks, we tow. Apparently most are buying a truck to drive like a car and need a smooth ride.

A friend purchased one a few months prior to us, she as most love the truck, but had the same complaint as we do. Terrible rear suspension. Her problem was what I call the floaty feeling when towing. She added air bags and that got rid of the problem.

After reading other post and forums, It was so concerning that I had the air bags and controller waiting at the dealer before my truck came in. The dealer installed them as part of my deal. Perhaps this is why even Dodge is now installing air bags on their trucks from factory, to keep their trucks level.

[Islander]

Originally Posted by Cujo7240

Actually, I bought this F350 Diesel truck for it's heavy duty suspension and extra towing capacity, so I would not have to do anything to the suspension and to be able to tow pretty much anything I wanted without any issues. Really not happy that I'm now back in this situation that I thought would no longer be an issue with this F350.
Previously I've owned many 1/2-ton pickups and like clock work, I ended up doing upgrades to them to make them better in the load carrying and towing department. I've added helper springs, air bag systems, and on my last truck I did actually went to a suspension shop and had them add a couple of leaf springs to my trucks rear suspension to eliminate the sag when I towed my Utility & Travel Trailers.
The other issue is this truck is only about 3 months old and I really didn't want to do anything to major to the truck while it's still under warranty.

Well, it seems that you already knew how to fix the 'squatting' issue ... However, your original concern was about towing your 5th wheel nose high and how to raise it.
Then the truck squatting issue came the forefront.
I guess if you can't improve the spring suspension due to warranty, then your only choice is to ... just experiment away.

Good luck , I really hope you can get it all sorted out.
Islander

[Cujo7240]

Originally Posted by Islander

Well, it seems that you already knew how to fix the 'squatting' issue ... However, your original concern was about towing your 5th wheel nose high and how to raise it.
Then the truck squatting issue came the forefront.
I guess if you can't improve the spring suspension due to warranty, then your only choice is to ... just experiment away.

Good luck , I really hope you can get it all sorted out.
Islander

Actually both concerns of Nose High towing of the 5th wheel Camper and truck squatting were presented in my initial posting of this discussion. Here's a sub-quote from my initial post:

'The issue is that my 5th wheel is towing nose high at about 4" and my truck is also squatting down with the load to the point that on coming drivers are flashing their hi-beams at me when I tow at night.'

I realized that if I fixed the squatting issue first that it would make the nose high towing issue worse, so that is why I asked this question to see what others have done who have been in a similar situation.
I also realize that there's more than one way to fix these issues and that it is going to take multiple changes to correct these issue. Some of the changes are easier decide on and to implement than others. Like the decision to swap out the 15" wheels and tires for 16" versions is already underway.
I'm still weighing all my options to fix the squatting truck issue and the nose high towing issue. Today I placed a call into Ford for help on these issues and they told me to call my local Ford dealer, so I did that as well.
I specifically asked if it was OK to swap the F250 lift blocks in place of the F350 lift blocks I already have and what they suggest be done to correct the truck squatting problem when I tow my camper. I'm still waiting to hear back from them.

[Rich5117]

Ok now I'm waiting on the edge of my seat to hear what the dealer is going to say about your issue and how they can help fix it.

[Springerdad]

Originally Posted by Rich5117

Ok now I'm waiting on the edge of my seat to hear what the dealer is going to say about your issue and how they can help fix it.

Don't hold your breath,,,,,,,

[Cujo7240]

Originally Posted by Springerdad

Don't hold your breath,,,,,,,

The service manager already said that Ford would probably let me know if the F250 swap would work or not, but they probably would advise me to look for an after-market solution to correct the squatting problem and that Ford would not recommend any one product or method, since they would not want to be held responsible should something happen.

[acadianbob]

Did you actually measure the amount of squat; empty vs with trailer. Measuring at the wheel well opening for example? You should be at about 2".

[Cujo7240]

Originally Posted by acadianbob

Did you actually measure the amount of squat; empty vs with trailer. Measuring at the wheel well opening for example? You should be at about 2".

I did not measure the amount of squat after hooking up the 5th wheel camper. I've only towed this camper once after I purchased it last month. I was at the RV dealership from noon til 7pm while they installed my 5th wheel hitch, did my new buyer orientation, and signed all paperwork. They had hooked up and pulled put of the service bay very quickly since they all wanted to go home.
First thing I noticed was that 5th wheel was towing nose high and none of the other 4 or 5 people said a word. One of the guys got a tape measure and determined it was 5" high in the front. I noticed they had one more notch they could go down on the 5th wheel hitch and no more upward adjustment was possible on the pin box. I had move the hitch down to its lowest position and we then rebooked up the RV. This was done by the light of someone's cell phone.
We then treasured the 5th wheel camper and it was still 4" high in the front and we were also at the minimum bedside clearance of about 6".
I ask all the service people what could be done about the nose high towing issue and the only suggestion was that they could get me a B&W 5th wheel hitch that can mount lower in the truck, but this would be all on my dime mind you, since the Reese hitch they installed was now used!
I then told them that idea was not feasible anyway, since we were al ready at the minimum bed clearance with the Reese hitch.
It wasn't until I was driving home after this 7 hr ordeal, that I became aware if my headlight issue, since just about every on coming car was flashing their brights at me on the 25 mile trip home.
By time I got home if was 8:30 & quite dark, so I just left it outside for the night and decided to park it in the morning.
My camper parking spot is kind of tricky to get into with a telephone pole, a raised stone garden, my garage on one side and my neighbors yard and house on the other side. The parking pad is not level either and this being one of wettest years on record as well I had to put the truck into 4 low just to get it parked and my yard got all tore up in the process. So it's no wonder why I forgot to measure the squat of my truck or even take a picture if the camper attached to the truck.
Hindsight is 20/20 they say and I really wish I had done all these things. Especially now since the camper is covered and stowed for the winter and all can do for the next 5 months is try and figure out what to do about these issues.

[Cujo7240]

Sorry if you found me last post hard to read, I posted that one from my cell phone and between the small keyboard & display, autocorrect, large fingers, and old eyes there were quite a few mistakes in the above posting.

Well I called back the Ford Dealership yesterday and the guy I talked to said they probably will not be able to help me and that I should call FleetPride a local truck suspension shop to see if they could help.
I called them and told them my goal was to lower my trucks rear suspension by 2" and also see if they could address the soft suspension issue at the same time. He replied that is something they really don't do and that I should contact Ford about this issue. I told it was the Ford Dealership that told me to call them! He then referred me to another local suspension shop that I had already called earlier that day.
Thruway Springs, the other local shop, said they don't really do suspension lowering by changing lift blocks and he also said we does not recommend air bags systems to correct suspension sag, but recommended that I bring in the truck and camper to see what he could do about the rear suspension squatting under the weight of the RV. He also said that trying to lower the truck and putting in more/stiffer springs might cause ride quality issues. None of the people I talked to could tell me if the swapping out the F350 lift blocks to the F250 lift blocks would work or not or whether any drive line issues might occur in the process.
I've read that drive-shaft setups on the 2017 F250 and F350 are very different, so it may not be as simple as just switching the lift blocks. The driveshaft center supports and the respective frame cross-members are different and have different mounting locations.
Has anyone tried the lift block swapping method to lowering the rear suspension by 2" on a 2017 F350? As we all know now, that the suspensions on these 2017 SuperDuty trucks are definitely different than previous years SuperDuty's and the changes Ford made with these 2017 trucks was not one of Ford's Better Ideas IMO, at least as far as 5th Wheel RV towing is concerned.

[071567]

If you are worried about your truck squatting when your 5th wheel is hooked up.Just get a lighter weight camper,or just deal with it.
I don't want to sound rude,but you only have two choices: 1) Air bags. 2) lighter weight camper.
I have a 2012 f350 with airbags. Also pull a 11,000 pound 5 wheel,and it does fine.