Level towing of a 5th wheel?

[Rich5117]

Wish I could have placed bets on your answers, missed out on a lot of bucks.

Regarding the lowering, I stated earlier that my sister is a ford service adviser, she checked on this for me and I was told that it can be done without issue. I personally know the diesel tech at the dealer he was the one that suggested it if necessary. Unfortunately this work will be on your dime.

The following is strictly my opinion, My new truck squats to level or around 2 inches I have not pulled at night so I don't know if I will get flashed at. Having just ordered and purchased a new truck if mine squatted lower than level while not exceeding the manufacturers payload it would be back to the dealer under warranty to check all the suspension parts to make sure the right parts were installed. The F250 has the same spring length is only 2700 lb instead of 3300 lb on the F350 who's to say a mistake was not made. I would escalate the issue as necessary until they got it fixed.

Be cautious of doing something outside of Ford to fix this while under warranty. While they can not void your entire warranty, that's illegal under Federal Law, they can refuse to repair anything that is damaged or broken as a result of something you have added or done to fix the problem. Also make sure anything you do is according to the manufacturers specs of the product your using to fix the problem. Even having airbags installed brings this into play.

Again, just my opinion I would call and ask to talk to a technician at SD Truck springs, when I needed to do something with my F250 because of the ever popular drivers side squat, they at least to me had the best knowledge of how any upgrades would affect ride as well as how their springs would react and handle loading of the springs. Under their suggestion I went from stock rated 2700 lb springs to 3400 lb springs, to be honest the ride was better and my old truck had no problem with the weight of our RV. I went from needing 60 psi in the air bags to only needing 30 psi.

I'm sure your getting frustrated, but you may need to wait until you can get the RV hooked up and out on a level area to really see exactly how bad it is and what it is doing, especially after your new tires are on. I agree that softening the springs was not one of Fords better decisions.

[mwdilday]

I have a 2017 F-350 DRW Diesel 8 foot bed pulling a Cedar Creek Champagne 38EL. FR Specs say pin weight on base trailer is 2710 lbs., trailer 14,479 unloaded and 18,000 gross. I have the generator option and the washer/dryer combo so I am probably a little heavier on the pin that both are on the front. I am 1" higher on the front vs the rear of trailer which I am happy with - nearly level. Have 7+ inches clearance over bed rails and truck squats 2" measured at rear axle centerline. Hitch just ahead of axle on truck. It pulls like a dream. People flash me so I guess my headlights are a little high - I guess I need to talk to the dealer about that.

[DougW]

I think the first step is to take the truck and trailer to the ford dealer and show them the problem with the truck, see what they can or will do to correct the squat issue.

Personally, I don't think lowering the rear suspension is a good answer.

If you do that without stiffening the suspension in some other way (Air bags or stiffer springs) you will be getting even more squat when you hook up the trailer.

If you lower the rear suspension will you be putting the truck out of level even when unloaded? If so it will not only look a bit odd, but it could have a negative affect on handling. Add the trailer and the additional squat and the handling may degrade even further.

If you lower the truck you will probably need to lower the front as well as the rear, and still do something so the rear does not squat significantly when the 5ver is hooked up.

Another option, while rather extreme, is to take the box off the pickup and put on a flatbed, no side-rail clearance issues with that so you could lower the hitch height to get the trailer level. Then you could put air bags on the truck so you can level it up with the trailer attached.

I would try to get it set up as well as I could, then tow it a few times. Monitor the trailer tire temperatures to see if the rear tires run warmer than the front tires. If there is little or no difference in temps then decide if you can live with the nose high towing.

[chaps2018]

Cujo-thanks for starting this thread and more importantly remaining engaged in the discussion. This truck/trailer mismatch issue scares a lot of 5er would-be/wannabes who don't want to have to mod their brand new truck/trailer or buy a 5er hitch twice to fix a previously unknown mismatch.

I recently moved to a 5er and am towing approx. 2" high (measured from front/rear frame to ground). After reading about the suggested technique of measuring between the axles vs front frame to ground i need to re-measure.

I am getting flashed while driving at night but my front fender height (hitched height vs unhitched height) confirms my front end is not rising in any significant way. I did notice Ram has a TSB on the headlight aiming that may address the problem.

I noticed the majority of the discussion is focused on the truck quat and not on the trailer height (--new wheels noted--). Since there are no "OEM" approved methods to lower the truck, the trailer level needs to be addressed first.

Assumptions:
1-You are reluctant to put your Truck warranty in jeopardy by changing suspension or just don't want to customize your truck for this specific tow job.
2-Pin box and hitch height are not potential solutions since you are at the 6" limit of the bed rails to bottom of 5er.

The points I recall on potential ways to lift the trailer were trailer suspension swap and the lippert square tube lift kit. Have these been exhausted yet?

(note the point regarding raising the trailer and entry step height can be easily addressed with the alumitread 4 step...don't ask me how i know)

I am following closely since I don't want to mess with my truck stock suspension.

[chaps2018]

Regarding pin weight--measuring is the only sure way to know what you have.

Trailer data sheet 2100lbs (18% of unloaded trailer weight)

My calculation (wet/loaded) pin weight should be: 2268lbs (18% of actual weight)

My actual (wet/loaded) pin weight at the scale wet/loaded: 2580lbs or (21% of actual trailer weight)

Point is actual was far different than the data sheet and what calculated should have been. But we all knew that right?

[Cujo7240]

Originally Posted by DougW

I think the first step is to take the truck and trailer to the ford dealer and show them the problem with the truck, see what they can or will do to correct the squat issue.

Personally, I don't think lowering the rear suspension is a good answer.

If you do that without stiffening the suspension in some other way (Air bags or stiffer springs) you will be getting even more squat when you hook up the trailer.

If you lower the rear suspension will you be putting the truck out of level even when unloaded? If so it will not only look a bit odd, but it could have a negative affect on handling. Add the trailer and the additional squat and the handling may degrade even further.

If you lower the truck you will probably need to lower the front as well as the rear, and still do something so the rear does not squat significantly when the 5ver is hooked up.

Another option, while rather extreme, is to take the box off the pickup and put on a flatbed, no side-rail clearance issues with that so you could lower the hitch height to get the trailer level. Then you could put air bags on the truck so you can level it up with the trailer attached.

I would try to get it set up as well as I could, then tow it a few times. Monitor the trailer tire temperatures to see if the rear tires run warmer than the front tires. If there is little or no difference in temps then decide if you can live with the nose high towing.

From the factory the 2017 f350 is 2.5" higher than the front, so lowering the rear by 2" would make the stance of the truck pretty much level to slightly higher in the back. I always planned to address the squatting issue at the same time, but I didn't just want to do this first, since it would make my nose high towing situation worse.
So what I was hoping would correct these issues was to lower the truck 2" with a lift block change, add an air bag system to correct the squatting issue and with the wheel and tire upgrade, this should get me to about a 1" nose high towing situation, which would be fine with me.

[Cujo7240]

Originally Posted by Rich5117

Wish I could have placed bets on your answers, missed out on a lot of bucks.

Regarding the lowering, I stated earlier that my sister is a ford service adviser, she checked on this for me and I was told that it can be done without issue. I personally know the diesel tech at the dealer he was the one that suggested it if necessary. Unfortunately this work will be on your dime.

The following is strictly my opinion, My new truck squats to level or around 2 inches I have not pulled at night so I don't know if I will get flashed at. Having just ordered and purchased a new truck if mine squatted lower than level while not exceeding the manufacturers payload it would be back to the dealer under warranty to check all the suspension parts to make sure the right parts were installed. The F250 has the same spring length is only 2700 lb instead of 3300 lb on the F350 who's to say a mistake was not made. I would escalate the issue as necessary until they got it fixed.

Be cautious of doing something outside of Ford to fix this while under warranty. While they can not void your entire warranty, that's illegal under Federal Law, they can refuse to repair anything that is damaged or broken as a result of something you have added or done to fix the problem. Also make sure anything you do is according to the manufacturers specs of the product your using to fix the problem. Even having airbags installed brings this into play.

Again, just my opinion I would call and ask to talk to a technician at SD Truck springs, when I needed to do something with my F250 because of the ever popular drivers side squat, they at least to me had the best knowledge of how any upgrades would affect ride as well as how their springs would react and handle loading of the springs. Under their suggestion I went from stock rated 2700 lb springs to 3400 lb springs, to be honest the ride was better and my old truck had no problem with the weight of our RV. I went from needing 60 psi in the air bags to only needing 30 psi.

I'm sure your getting frustrated, but you may need to wait until you can get the RV hooked up and out on a level area to really see exactly how bad it is and what it is doing, especially after your new tires are on. I agree that softening the springs was not one of Fords better decisions.

It would be great if you could get your sister the Ford Service Writer and your Ford Diesel mechanic friend to outline with part numbers what they would do to correct these issues. I'm OK with spending the money and I'm more than capable and have the tools to do the work myself, but I would feel a lot better having their expert advice.

I think that Ford made a big mistake making these 2017 SuperDuty trucks bed floor heights / bedsides taller and made it even worse by making the suspension softer to give it a car like ride. These types of changes on a 1/2 ton truck might make more sense, since many 1/2-ton truck owners (Not All) don't really do that much serious towing. This last statement was not true for me, but many 1/2-ton truck owners never haul anything more than groceries. I believe that the large majority of the people who buy these SuperDuty trucks, buy them for towing heavy loads and for larger/heavier towing applications. If they can make it ride better without compromising the hauling/towing capabilities that's great, but otherwise I'm OK with it driving like a truck!
Actually the 2017 Ford SuperDuty payload and towing capacity is spec'd to be higher than previous year's SuperDuty trucks, but the softer suspension they implemented in 2017 doesn't make it look that way going down the road with a load!

[Murbella7]

Know what? I think the smartest and easiest thing to do would be....

Sell the Ford and buy a Chevy Silverado, or a Dodge Ram, Or a Nissan Titan.
(This post will probably start another war).

[Rich5117]

Murbella7 now you did it, just kidding. Can' t speak for the Chevy or GMC, but Dodge started putting airbags on as a standard, wonder why? The Nissan is a really sharp truck, but only rated at 11900 not bad for a lighter 5er. Hear the Nissan diesel engine is very solid. Would be curious how the payload numbers finish out.

Hey the edit feature works now on iPads bad spelling.

[Islander]

Cujo..... Jim,

I really sympathize with you trying to solve your issue between 5th wheel and your truck.

You've gone and gotten what may have been your dream truck & trailer and the dang truck manufacturers go and change things up making it very difficult for you.

If that were me I'd feel like I've been punch hard in the gut ! .... maybe you do as well (?)... I don't know.

This thread has certainly drawn some interesting feed back and some possible alternatives that may prove to be helpful.

Anyway, please know that many of us here are eager to hear how this all works out for you and I hope some 'very wise experienced' person will provide a solution for you sooner than later.

We're aware that your rig is in bed for the winter so we'll wait patiently for you to post any advances towards a solution.

Meanwhile... try to enjoy the Holiday Season... all the Best to you.

Islander

[Murbella7]

Originally Posted by Rich5117

Murbella7 now you did it, just kidding. Can' t speak for the Chevy or GMC, but Dodge started putting airbags on as a standard, wonder why? The Nissan is a really sharp truck, but only rated at 11900 not bad for a lighter 5er. Hear the Nissan diesel engine is very solid. Would be curious how the payload numbers finish out.

Hey the edit feature works now on iPads bad spelling.

Air bags, wot? Do you guys have passenger spots under the tub?

Too bad the editor doesn't correct my spelling mistakes. Must be the Ozzie grandma (dammed spell checker - meant grammar) that puts it off.

[B and B]

I have read most of this thread a second time.

I had a F 250 with the Rockwood and then due to a service issue and blowing all the seals in the engine I bought a new 2016 F 350. The F350 sits down more after loading it up. I had to drop the hitch one full hole or 1.5 inches. I never had a sag issues with either truck, both have heaviest springs, F 250 was camper package and f 350 is XTR Snowplow Prep. I have the 16,000 Bighorn and fully loaded for travel with 250 lbs in bed of generator and firewood I tow level. I think that Ford needs to look further at this sag issue. The dealer should run this to Fleet as this would show up in Commercial trucks and there a lot of them up here in Canada.

[B and B]

Originally Posted by Murbella7

Air bags, wot? Do you guys have passenger spots under the tub?

Too bad the editor doesn't correct my spelling mistakes. Must be the Ozzie grandma (dammed spell checker - meant grammar) that puts it off.

Murbella, is your Silverado made by Holden in Australia?

[Murbella7]

Originally Posted by B and B

Murbella, is your Silverado made by Holden in Australia?

No and I am not sure if that was a good or bad thing. In fact, to my knowledge, no Chevy trucks were built in Australia, they were/are all imports. This of course means that they have to be converted to right-hand drive, which usually happens in one of the cheap labour countries like Thailand or Singapore.

Holden built cars and utes, anything else was an import either by them or by grey-market dealers.

[Cujo7240]

So it's been a long Winter and the Spring has been challenging, because it seems Winter does not want to leave the northeast this year. I had to bring in my 2017 Wildcat 29RLX for some Warranty work yesterday and we decided to pull RV out front on the night before the impending ice storm hit us later Saturday afternoon.
We have a gravel parking spot for the RV, but we have to cross about 35 feet of lawn to get to the road, so we wanted to move the RV before the ground got any wetter. Well I knew I was in trouble when I started spinning before I even got backed up to the RV and I had to put my F350 into four wheel drive just to get to the RV.
After hooking up the 5th whee,l I barely got 5 ft before I started spinning again. I knew then I would not be getting the RV out of there that night. My plan was to to just see if I could get my truck out there. I had to unhook from the RV and then jack my truck up and get some boards under the mud filled tires and I put every piece of plywood I could find along my escape route and I did manage to get my truck out of the lawn by 8pm that night.
The next day I went to my local home center and bought ~$170 of plywood and when I got home I built a plywood path to get my RV out of jail. The jail break was successful and I got the RV to the dealer on time.
You maybe wondering why I'm posting this story under this thread I started at the end of last year? The reason is that all during this thread people kept asking for pictures of my truck and camper hooked up, so they could see the 3" nose high towing issue I was talking about and I had not taken any pictures of this when brought the RV home last year just before the snow hit us. I also never got a measurement of how much this 2017 Wildcat 29RLX was squatting my 2017 F350 Superduty. I had estimated it was about 3" and most people didn't think that this RV should have made my F350 squat that much. Well the wait is over, I finally got a picture of the setup on fairly level ground at the dealership. You can see the truck is indeed squatting, but the nose high RV towing condition does not look that bad in this picture. The day I picked it up we determined it was riding ~3.5" high in the front by measuring the frame height from the ground, between the tandem wheels and then compared to the frame height at the front of the RV.

I finally measured the degree of squat from the weight of the RV on the truck to be 3-1/4".

[Cujo7240]

As you may recall I did buy 16" wheels and tires for my Wildcat, but I haven't had a chance to get them installed yet. I also bought an AirLift airbag and compressor system for the truck, but I have not installed that yet either. So the picture I posted in my last post is before any of my upgrades have been implemented. I realize the that by correcting the truck squat issue that it will make the nose high towing situation worse, so I also invested in the Lippert Correct Track (LCT) axle alignment system as well. The LCT system also has the added benefit of lifting the RV by 2", so with the larger wheels and tires I will have raised the RV by about 3".
I'll use the air bags to reduce the truck squat from 3-1/4" to just about 1", so if my math is right and my numbers are correct, I should only be about 1" nose high when towing. I figure I will also adjust my headlights down a bit and call it good.

[chaps2018]

I have exactly the same problem. Trailer riding 2 in nose High and bed of my 3500 squatting.

I installed timbrens on my rear end that took care of the squatting problem.

Unfortunately I'm trailer nose High just a little bit more I haven't measured yet.

I'm considering putting on 19 inch tires or correct track in order to minimize the difference in height.

I'm anxiously awaiting how this works out for you

[chaps2018]

[acadianbob]

I'm also pulling a Wildcat 29RLX with a F250 gasser with Camper Package. My truck squats (from unloaded) but sits pretty flat. Trailer is maybe 3 inches nose high. I don't view it as a problem. Went to a scale and measured all of my axles. The trailer axle weights were identical. I'm not concerned about the trailer being any more level.

We just towed from MN to Tucson with zero issues; great stability. One day was a tough pull from Amarillo, TX to Albuquerque with a 25 mph crosswind. You could feel the wind, of course, but overall we were quite stable. Nothing scary.

The new trucks, especially Ford, are ridiculously high though aren't they . .

[ard58]

Cujo7240
The next day I went to my local home center and bought ~$170 of plywood and when I got home I built a plywood path to get my RV out of jail.

This reminds me of a minor league baseball we attended years ago. They had an after game concert, field was soaked from about 3 inches of rain the day before. The band was set up on a gooseneck trailer pulled by a 1 ton dually. Well the field crew had about 12 sheets of plywood and they laid down, truck drove to the end, they picked up and laid in front, and repeated till they got to where they stopped and played. Then did again to get off the field. Took about an hour to get on and another to get off. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.