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Old 03-19-2019, 08:35 AM   #81
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the caveat being of the ability to brake...you never want the tail wagging the dog, thats the advantage of an exhaust brake.[/QUOTE]


Uh-oh.
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Old 03-19-2019, 08:42 AM   #82
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Towing, particularly a camper, is very subjective, as one can see from this thread.

Going back to the OP's issue - will he be comfortable towing a "light weight" TT in the Eastern mountains? My towing comfort is a continuum from "white knuckle" to "relaxed and comfortable", and it's not linear, either.

Thinking about what makes me comfortable towing:
- no sway at any speed. Nothing puts me in fear of my life faster than the trailer swaying from side to side. A good WDH and properly set up hitch does wonders here. Only an indirect relationship to advertised tow capacity.

- brakes on the camper that make the tow vehicle and trailer brake as one unit with brake performance the same as not towing. This has very little to do with trailer weight or tow capacity, and a lot to do with adjusting the brake controller and maintaining the trailer brakes.

- tow vehicle rides and handles close to stock. This means WDH and other measures used to keep the front end at normal level, and not overloading the rear end.

- power enough to maintain normal traffic speed on the highway on all grades. This last one is not nearly as safety critical as the previous, but is a big driving comfort item TO ME. This is the only item that relates to tow vehicle power/torque.

I don't like being at the lead of a long, slow parade with people riding my bumper looking for an opportunity to pass. This may be where your 4Runner/TT combination is going to fall short, and where it might not be as much of a driving comfort factor for you as it is for me.

Can you maintain 75mph with your rig in top gear on the flats and with a headwind? If the answer is yes, and your tranny gearing is reasonable, you can probably handle the mountains just fine, albeit in a lower gear and higher engine RPMs than you are used to. If you have to shift down on the flats to hold interstate speeds, you don't have enough power to maintain interstate speeds on mountain grades.

In my case, the High Wall A-frame is about as much as I can comfortably tow with my minivan because of wind resistance. I could not tow a full height TT with the minivan at interstate speeds without shifting down.

These are my towing margin tests, and the results will vary from tow vehicle to tow vehicle especially when comparing 6 cylinder vehicles.

just my observations and experiences
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:16 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Dirt Sifter View Post
the caveat being of the ability to brake...you never want the tail wagging the dog, thats the advantage of an exhaust brake.
That is an interesting hypothesis, but now explain to me how that hypothesis works applied to semis?
Do you really believe that the 20 ton trailer can't wag the tractor???
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:23 AM   #84
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Can you maintain 75mph with your rig ...
Nobody would argue that a Semi is well put together to carry the tons of cargo it carries YET its speed is limited, in most places, to 65mph....
I don't think the brakes on the Semis are under designed or it lacks power to run at 80mph so why should a Semi ride at 65mph if it could do its job faster running at 80mph???

We see that situation everyday but for some reason, people think that they can tow a camper at 80mph safely just because they have a 1 ton truck and are towing only 5000lbs....

The problem here is Kinetic ENERGY.
When you consider that, a truck towing a camper which is 10% over its towing capacity but it does so at 55mph is way safer than that 1 ton truck towing a 21000lbs fiver at 80mph even though the 1 ton truck have all the weights within specification.


Just as an example, for a given weight, a speed increase from 65mph to 80mph means an increase in Kinetic energy of 51% (!) even though the speed only increased 23%... BUT driving at 80mph you will not, in most cases, double the space between you and the vehicle ahead of you for , due to the speed, you will probably pushing and passing most of the people in the highway...


So people increase the energy you need to dissipate when braking (meaning you need more space to stop) and at the same time people reduce the space you have to stop but yet think they are safe because they are within the weight limits and have a "good" diesel engine brake and exhaust brake..... Catastrophic thinking...


That is the reason, I believe, I can't remember to have seen an accident caused by overload but I do remember to have seeing several due to high speeds...
I'm not advocating overloading the TV, but we get crazy here about payload and towing capacity and for the most part ignore speed...
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:43 AM   #85
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Just do like most on here do, what ever you think you can haul, plus 10%, cause you saw someone else doing it and they didn't die
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Old 03-19-2019, 10:12 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by pgandw View Post
Towing, particularly a camper, is very subjective, as one can see from this thread.

Going back to the OP's issue - will he be comfortable towing a "light weight" TT in the Eastern mountains? My towing comfort is a continuum from "white knuckle" to "relaxed and comfortable", and it's not linear, either.

Thinking about what makes me comfortable towing:
- no sway at any speed. Nothing puts me in fear of my life faster than the trailer swaying from side to side. A good WDH and properly set up hitch does wonders here. Only an indirect relationship to advertised tow capacity.

- brakes on the camper that make the tow vehicle and trailer brake as one unit with brake performance the same as not towing. This has very little to do with trailer weight or tow capacity, and a lot to do with adjusting the brake controller and maintaining the trailer brakes.

- tow vehicle rides and handles close to stock. This means WDH and other measures used to keep the front end at normal level, and not overloading the rear end.

- power enough to maintain normal traffic speed on the highway on all grades. This last one is not nearly as safety critical as the previous, but is a big driving comfort item TO ME. This is the only item that relates to tow vehicle power/torque.
I differ from many of the others - I see the towing section of the owners manual as "guidance", not law. Just like the engineers in San Diego making equipment for our "high sites" in Alaska could not foresee the conditions under which we would be using their equipment, so the automotive engineers cannot foresee every towing possibility in their analysis and calculations. Towing a sailboat is very different from towing a tt, even though they could be the very same weight. Which is very different from towing a loaded horse trailer.

In my quote above, I listed the operational concerns that make me safe and comfortable while towing. Notice almost none of these are directly impacted by whether the tt weighs 4900lbs or 5100lbs. Wind resistance is at least as big a factor as trailer weight when considering less than full size trucks for tow vehicles. Tongue weight is more important than max gross weight of the trailer. That said, max gross weight of the trailer above the TV's tow capacity is often a good indicator you are going to have struggles operationally making it a safe and comfortable tow.

just my thoughts
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Old 03-19-2019, 10:47 AM   #87
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Nobody would argue that a Semi is well put together to carry the tons of cargo it carries YET its speed is limited, in most places, to 65mph....
I don't think the brakes on the Semis are under designed or it lacks power to run at 80mph so why should a Semi ride at 65mph if it could do its job faster running at 80mph???

We see that situation everyday but for some reason, people think that they can tow a camper at 80mph safely just because they have a 1 ton truck and are towing only 5000lbs....

The problem here is Kinetic ENERGY.
When you consider that, a truck towing a camper which is 10% over its towing capacity but it does so at 55mph is way safer than that 1 ton truck towing a 21000lbs fiver at 80mph even though the 1 ton truck have all the weights within specification.


Just as an example, for a given weight, a speed increase from 65mph to 80mph means an increase in Kinetic energy of 51% (!) even though the speed only increased 23%... BUT driving at 80mph you will not, in most cases, double the space between you and the vehicle ahead of you for , due to the speed, you will probably pushing and passing most of the people in the highway...


So people increase the energy you need to dissipate when braking (meaning you need more space to stop) and at the same time people reduce the space you have to stop but yet think they are safe because they are within the weight limits and have a "good" diesel engine brake and exhaust brake..... Catastrophic thinking...


That is the reason, I believe, I can't remember to have seen an accident caused by overload but I do remember to have seeing several due to high speeds...
I'm not advocating overloading the TV, but we get crazy here about payload and towing capacity and for the most part ignore speed...


Two commercial trucks, same engines one runs 65 and one runs 80, different fuel pumps. A lot of companies will only run there rigs at 65 and some 55. Some companies think it’s a safety issue and that is why they run different fuel pumps. Independent truckers open up there rigs to get to the next stop quickly and aren’t worried about fuel mileage. I believe that the truck companies are just covering there butt by putting on the yellow stickers showing what each truck can tow. A commercial rig can carry a whole lot more weight that what DOT says they can carry and safely too. I wonder if a semi comes with a yellow sticker.
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:09 AM   #88
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. I wonder if a semi comes with a yellow sticker.
yup they do...
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:11 AM   #89
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I'm thinking the folks using class 8 semis as a comparison don't understand commercial weight ratings and limits. That 80,000 GVW sticker is a DOT limit, not the truck's limit. This is due to bridge and other road limits, not the limits of the truck. The mfr limit of the semi tractor is MUCH higher than the DOT limit.

You could have a tractor with a 92,000LB GVWR and 210,000LB GCWR and it would still be limited to 80,000LB GVW, with that number on the side of the truck, by the DOT unless you had the proper permits to haul an oversize/overweight load.

Consumer pickups aren't subject to DOT weight limits/restrictions because they can't even reach that limit, so they are subject to the mfr weight ratings.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:10 PM   #90
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you guys are so busy going at each other, have you even noticed that the OP hasn't replied to any of your responses ???
Geezz... you guys probably scared him off.

OP KingJames - I live close to you, Town and County. Have you taken your set up across the Sunshine Skyway ? or any of the large over passes in our area ? Has your TV bogged down ? Are you white knuckling it when semis pass you on the interstate ?
I know overpasses and the Sunshine Skyway are not "mountains" but if it seems that your TV boggs down going over the simple overpasses and some of our local tall bridges, then I would guess your TV could not handle the mountains.
Are you going to travel a lot to the mountains or just an occasional trip ? Do you live in your TT or use it a few times a year for camping ?
Weigh your pros and cons before you trade your TV for something larger (and more expensive) that you don't necessarily need.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:31 PM   #91
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you guys are so busy going at each other, have you even noticed that the OP hasn't replied to any of your responses ???
Geezz... you guys probably scared him off.
Why does the OP need to respond to anyone? They asked what margins OTHER people stick to because they're curious and people have responded. Settle down.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:40 PM   #92
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Why does the OP need to respond to anyone? They asked what margins OTHER people stick to because they're curious and people have responded. Settle down.
I can't be more "settled down" then I am right now. Just got back from fishing, drinking some coffee while sitting in my recliner, thinking about taking an afternoon nap.
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:10 PM   #93
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I can't be more "settled down" then I am right now. Just got back from fishing, drinking some coffee while sitting in my recliner, thinking about taking an afternoon nap.
There's nothing quite as nice as brewing up a nice mocha and relaxing, that's for sure. (Said as I sip on a mocha I made a few mins ago. I'm not a fan of drip coffee, but that's neither here nor there. I just know how you feel.)

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Old 03-19-2019, 01:33 PM   #94
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I'm thinking the folks using class 8 semis as a comparison don't understand commercial weight ratings and limits.

Cost:

People buy class 8 trucks in order to make money with them and the more they spend on the truck the less $$$ they will make so it is really hard to believe that a 80000lbs rated truck was designed to carry 120000lbs...
While it is true a 80000lbs rated truck can carry 120000lbs, it only can do that for SAFETY reasons and not because of intent/design.
If you design for 120000lbs you have a more expensive truck and why to pay more if you will not use that capacity to make $$$???

Design:
The dynamic forces (for example when a truck hits a bump, etc) are way higher than the static ones so you can load 120000lbs on that semi and it will not fail immediately, but the chassis will crack down the road because of the dynamic forces (all the bumps and holes on the road), which will not happen when running up to the 80000lbs limit.
Another thing is startability and grade. Load that semi with 120000lbs and try to go up the IKE in Colorado.... Engine and transmission are designed for a certain GVWR startability, grade, etc...
For example, the terminal tractors (those trucks that live in ports moving containers back and forth) are Class * (because the load they can carry) but designed to run on flat terrain... They will not go up the Smoke Mountains... Nobody wants to spend a single penny on cargo capacity they can't make money on.

Speed:
The argument still stands that the 65 mph limit is there for a reason and the reason is safety.
Kinect energy directly with mass but it also grows with square of the speed that is the reason an overloaded truck can stop if riding slow but a truck within its weight limits can't when riding too fast...
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:58 PM   #95
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yup they do...


Hey I wonder how they can legally tow 80,000 pounds. Some in North Carolina 93,000 pounds. Tell me how
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:07 PM   #96
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Cost:

People buy class 8 trucks in order to make money with them and the more they spend on the truck the less $$$ they will make so it is really hard to believe that a 80000lbs rated truck was designed to carry 120000lbs...
While it is true a 80000lbs rated truck can carry 120000lbs, it only can do that for SAFETY reasons and not because of intent/design.
If you design for 120000lbs you have a more expensive truck and why to pay more if you will not use that capacity to make $$$???

Design:
The dynamic forces (for example when a truck hits a bump, etc) are way higher than the static ones so you can load 120000lbs on that semi and it will not fail immediately, but the chassis will crack down the road because of the dynamic forces (all the bumps and holes on the road), which will not happen when running up to the 80000lbs limit.
Another thing is startability and grade. Load that semi with 120000lbs and try to go up the IKE in Colorado.... Engine and transmission are designed for a certain GVWR startability, grade, etc...
For example, the terminal tractors (those trucks that live in ports moving containers back and forth) are Class * (because the load they can carry) but designed to run on flat terrain... They will not go up the Smoke Mountains... Nobody wants to spend a single penny on cargo capacity they can't make money on.

Speed:
The argument still stands that the 65 mph limit is there for a reason and the reason is safety.
Kinect energy directly with mass but it also grows with square of the speed that is the reason an overloaded truck can stop if riding slow but a truck within its weight limits can't when riding too fast...
The flip side is that there are certain pieces of equipment that will just have more capacity than is required or usable, that doesn't always cost more and is just part of the general design/engineering and manufacturing processes. Often times it's cheaper to build fewer parts with the same specs than to build more parts with a range of specs. Meaning building the frames with the same metal, buying more of one axle vs lower volumes of multiple different axles, etc. That cuts down on inventory cost, assembly line processes, etc. Those save money and saving money/maximizing profits is what businesses focus on.

Lower rating doesn't automatically mean lower cost for the same class of truck if both are rated for the 80,000LB gross limit or more.

This even holds true for pickups. The price difference between a new 1/2-ton, 3/4-ton, and 1-ton truck with similar equipment is relatively small. Getting a 1-ton truck with twice the towing capacity of a 1/2-ton truck doesn't cost twice as much or anywhere near it. The cost comes from other options, not from what it's rated to do.
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:15 PM   #97
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you guys are so busy going at each other, have you even noticed that the OP hasn't replied to any of your responses ???
Geezz... you guys probably scared him off.

OP KingJames - I live close to you, Town and County. Have you taken your set up across the Sunshine Skyway ? or any of the large over passes in our area ? Has your TV bogged down ? Are you white knuckling it when semis pass you on the interstate ?
I know overpasses and the Sunshine Skyway are not "mountains" but if it seems that your TV boggs down going over the simple overpasses and some of our local tall bridges, then I would guess your TV could not handle the mountains.
Are you going to travel a lot to the mountains or just an occasional trip ? Do you live in your TT or use it a few times a year for camping ?
Weigh your pros and cons before you trade your TV for something larger (and more expensive) that you don't necessarily need.
Amen Brother.
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:27 PM   #98
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I know, I know another towing question. Just wondering what towing margin most of you adhere to between max towing capacity of your TV and the actual gross weight you travel with. So far we've stayed pretty much in FL which is flat. Would like to spend some time this summer in the Virginia mountains or NC mountains where it's cooler than FL. Curious as to a level of safety and wear and tear on the TV.
Back to the original OP question...

We are about 65% based on actual CAT Scale readings, loaded and on a road trip.

However, we travel cross country, not down local flat roads as some do. It's a comfortable tow and I don't feel like I am abusing my TV. I feel sorry for some of the trucks I've seen struggling to make it over a summit on roads we've traveled.
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Old 03-19-2019, 02:54 PM   #99
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FWIW, I'm towing at about 65% of max tow rating but am up near my truck's GVWR. I towed with this setup through Colorado, over 11,000+ foot passes in multiple states, with crosswinds, hail, and rain, and ended up logging over 5,000 miles by the end of that 3-week trip. At no time did I feel as though I had too much trailer or needed more truck, I felt my combo was paired quite well and had I not run it over some CAT scales I never would have guessed I had a potential payload problem. After that trip I made some changes to reduce weight but only because of what the scales showed, not because of how the truck and trailer handled. There were actually times that I was more concerned that the wind was going to blow the trailer over than anything else, sway and push from the wind was a non-issue. Going up and down 2-lane roads over high summits was never a concern or issue.

So I can understand why people would feel OK wanting to zoom down the freeway at high speed. It may feel safe and stable, but there are many things that feel that way and then change in an instant due to things outside of our control, things we didn't consider, or things we weren't even aware of.

If you have to ask what should be done/changed/modified to be able to tow at high speed...that should set off warning bells that perhaps you just shouldn't try and drive that fast.

Just my $0.02.
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Old 03-19-2019, 04:01 PM   #100
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I don't like to tow much more than four or five thousand pounds over the max combined weight rating! :-) bwahahaha
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