Rockwood06 Asks

[rockwood06]

Originally Posted by herk7769

Dave is telling you true.
You are VERY close so weighing your truck loaded as you would camp is real important to discover what you can tow as a 5th wheel. Don't forget to add what your hitch will weigh.

Ok now looking at what kind of weight I am going to have in the tow vehicle:

26 gallons of gas x 6.073 per pound=158 lbs rounding up.

It will be just my wife and I and three very small dogs = maybe 325 lbs.

As far as the hitch????? 200 lbs?....For the most part everything else will be in the 5th wheel, now what am I missing ???

So right now I am at 683 lbs in and on the tow vehicle, what do I subtract this # from? and where might I be at this point?



In the book for the 5th wheel it says "HITCH WEIGHT"-1265, is this the same as "PIN WEIGHT"?

[Lynkage]

Yes, same measurement.

[rockwood06]

Ok, I just found out how to do the math I subtracted the 683 lbs form the payload=1,921 lbs and came up with 1,238, the 5th wheel pin weight is 1,265 lbs, if I am reading this right the pin weight is more then I can handle safely is this correct?

[MillerTime]

I work at a Gm dealership and what dave monica said is true. vortec max is a 1/2 ton frame the engine, ring gear and possibly trans is where the tow rating is comming from. Your weight at 7k lb is impossible. I scaled my 05 2500HD duramax crew cab 4x4 w/ lift and 35" tires w/ 5/8 tank of fuel and a 1/2 full toolbox and a 160lb driver (me) at our farm center and i only came in at a little over 7,300 and that was with my b&w companion hitch.

I think you will be a little heavy and towing a 5er is more than about weight. i tow tractors and the trailer together are about 17-18k and they dont catch near the wind or pull near as hard as a loaded 10-11k 5er. Just my opinion, but the first time i towed a fiver i was realy surprised just how hard they pulled and i use diesels, and i have been hauling heavy loads and running class 8 (semi) rigs for years. find someone that has one and see if they will let you cruise it a few miles with thier setup and go from there if you have a chance

[Dave_Monica]

Originally Posted by rockwood06

Ok, I just found out how to do the math I subtracted the 683 lbs form the payload=1,921 lbs and came up with 1,238, the 5th wheel pin weight is 1,265 lbs, if I am reading this right the pin weight is more then I can handle safely is this correct?

The real weight at a CAT scale gets rid of all the guessing...best $10 you'll ever spend. Some of the optional equipment you have will also reduce the factory payload number. It's the only way to get the rear axle weight to be able to compare to truck's RAWR.

I'd suspect that the loaded pin weight will put the truck over it's GVWR and maybe, less than it's RAWR. That's the same situation I had towing our current camper with a Ram 1500...towed that way for 2 years. Our pin weight at that time was only 1240 lbs loaded. The weight you're talking about with 1265 lbs is unloaded...loaded may be 200 - 500 lbs more.

The manufacturer likes to claim that they're half ton towable but they never seem to consider the effect of pin weight verses available payload.

Dave

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by rockwood06

In the book for the 5th wheel it says "HITCH WEIGHT"-1265, is this the same as "PIN WEIGHT"?

Oh, Oh. Yes, but that is the EMPTY pin weight; not the loaded for camping pin weight.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by MillerTime

I scaled my 05 2500HD duramax crew cab 4x4 w/ lift and 35" tires w/ 5/8 tank of fuel and a 1/2 full toolbox and a 160lb driver (me) at our farm center and i only came in at a little over 7,300 and that was with my b&w companion hitch.

That diesel is a lot heavier than his 6 liter gas engine. There are 2500HD pickups with gas engines that have a lot more available payload than my Duramax equipped Sierra.

FYI My 2500HD scales out ready for hooking up at 7800 pounds and my GVWR is 9200 pounds leaving an available pin weight of 1400 pounds.

At 20% "optimum" loading I max out with a 7000 pound 5th wheel. With careful loading I can keep the pin at 15.5% load ratio and can camp within spec with my camper at its max gross weight of 9100 pounds.

With that light a pin weight I get a large amount of front end hunting and go through front tires way faster than rears. I also can't take my hands off the wheel since every breeze will head me in a new direction. This is not sway; buy dynamic instability due to minimum pin loading.

[rockwood06]

[QUOTE=MillerTime;262903]I work at a Gm dealership and what dave monica said is true. vortec max is a 1/2 ton frame the engine, ring gear and possibly trans is where the tow rating is comming from. Your weight at 7k lb is impossible. I scaled my 05 2500HD duramax crew cab 4x4 w/ lift and 35" tires w/ 5/8 tank of fuel and a 1/2 full toolbox and a 160lb driver (me) at our farm center and i only came in at a little over 7,300 and that was with my b&w companion hitch.

I think you will be a little heavy and towing a 5er is more than about weight. i tow tractors and the trailer together are about 17-18k and they dont catch near the wind or pull near as hard as a loaded 10-11k 5er. Just my opinion, but the first time i towed a fiver i was realy surprised just how hard they pulled and i use diesels, and i have been hauling heavy loads and running class 8 (semi) rigs for years. find someone that has one and see if they will let you cruise it a few miles with thier setup and go from there if you have a chance[/QUOT

So if the weight that is stated on the sticker for my truck is 7300 lbs and you say it can't be comparing it to your truck......then I would have to guess that the rest of the info about the axles are wrong as well, maybe I will use a uility trailer and put a tent on it This does not sound right.......

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by Dave_Monica

The manufacturer likes to claim that they're half ton towable but they never seem to consider the effect of pin weight verses available payload.

Dave

Dave! They ARE 1/2 ton towable! Just without anyone but the driver in the truck and nothing in the camper!

As for Rockwood06, I have to say you will be pushing the envelope.

Remember some things about design specs (I am sure the same that applies to limits in the aircraft industry apply to the truck industry).

1) Design limits are there to insure that the "item" will last out its useful life without failure. Engineers need something to work from so they decide what that "design life" will be. 10 years, 10000 landings, 30 years, whatever.

2) With aircraft weight is critical so nothing can be made stronger or heavier than it needs to be to meet the design spec. I think we can safely say this is true of trucks as well since the heavier they make the truck for a given power footprint; the less payload it will have.

3) If you exceed the designed load factor, something that the designers took into consideration will be stressed beyond its designed limit. What HAPPENS depends on WHAT limit is exceeded; the amount of the overload; and the duration of the overload.

For example, take a paperclip and straighten it out. Grab the ends and begin flexing the wire slightly. It will take a long time to work harden a random section of wire and it will suddenly snap. Now take a new one and do the same thing just increase the amplitude of the bend (bend it further). It will break much sooner.

So, say you are overloaded by a few hundred pounds; are you unsafe? Probably not. (In fact, in my truck a slightly overloaded pin weight makes my truck more stable, thus "safer")

What it most likely will do is reduce the useful life of your truck with the additional frame flexing. Most folks trade their truck every 6 -7 years and the problem moves on to someone else who may never tow (so no harm no foul).
Or, they may have their truck break down and leave them on the side of the highway.

No one here can tell you what to do. Heck even my DW can't tell me what to do even though she is way smarter than me (she married me right). So knowing what the numbers are is 90% of the battle. You then need to decide what you want to do with the other 10%

The idea is to and not worry about the truck or the camper.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by MillerTime

Your weight at 7k lb is impossible.

What makes you say this? Looks like based on options for the 2008 1500s the GVWR ranges from 6800 - 7200 pounds.

7000 seems about right no?

[Dave_Monica]

Originally Posted by herk7769

With that light a pin weight I get a large amount of front end hunting and go through front tires way faster than rears. I also can't take my hands off the wheel since every breeze will head me in a new direction. This is not sway; buy dynamic instability due to minimum pin loading.

Interesting...I've always been at 15 -16% pin weight and have never noticed what you're describing. The camper has tracked fine with either TV I've had...done many 10+ hour towing days so it's not 'work' to tow.

I don't think I could get to 20% pin weight unless I put all the contents of the kitchen ahead of the axles (and a cement block or few)!

Dave

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by Dave_Monica

Interesting...I've always been at 15 -16% pin weight and have never noticed what you're describing. The camper has tracked fine with either TV I've had. I don't think I could get to 20% pin weight unless I put all the contents of the kitchen ahead of the axles (and a cement block or few)!

Dave

Next time you take it out, keep what I said in mind and see what you think. It was wear bars on my front tires after 1 year of towing that got me my Michelins.

[MillerTime]

Originally Posted by herk7769

What makes you say this? Looks like based on options for the 2008 1500s the GVWR ranges from 6800 - 7200 pounds.

7000 seems about right no?

I meant that the truch should not weigh 7k right now. Yes gvw would be around there but gvw that is on stickers in door jams is not the actual weight of the vehicle as most of you know, but there are a lot that don't.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by MillerTime

I meant that the truck should not weigh 7k right now. Yes gvw would be around there but gvw that is on stickers in door jams is not the actual weight of the vehicle as most of you know, but there are a lot that don't.

That is true. His "pillar payload" should be subtracted from the "pillar GVWR" will give him his "curb weight" (Truck with 150 pound driver and a tank of gas).

His "tow rating" (the 10,500 pound number) is based on towing AT the curb weight. Every additional pound added to the truck affects the weight you can pull and more importantly the portion of that weight you can carry on your back.

To understand where he is, he will need a true reading of available payload and the only way to do that is to work UP from an accurate starting weight; not GVWR minus Curb Payload.

[rockwood06]

Originally Posted by herk7769

That is true. His "pillar payload" should be subtracted from the "pillar GVWR" will give him his "curb weight" (Truck with 150 pound driver and a tank of gas).

His "tow rating" (the 10,500 pound number) is based on towing AT the curb weight. Every additional pound added to the truck affects the weight you can pull and more importantly the portion of that weight you can carry on your back.

To understand where he is, he will need a true reading of available payload and the only way to do that is to work UP from an accurate starting weight; not GVWR minus Curb Payload.

Ok, all of this info is building a mountain and alot of concerns. I called the dealer today and the 5th wheel is do off of the line tomorrow, now I am told that the hitch weighs 50 lbs, I had questions about the pin weight, I was told that the pin weight will not change once I load the camper as long as there is no more cargo added above the hitch, the only thing that will be effected will be the towable weight down in the living space the upper section is the bedroom and that will be underwear and things like that. I am also told that I have more then enough truck for this 5th wheel, and just when I thought I had all of the terms down and was starting to understand them now there is new one "CURB PAYLOAD". It seems like every corner I turn there is a different anwser......................

I hope everyone out there that has question on the same subject is following along, this one reason I wanted this on an open thread......so that we all can learn together!!!

[TURBS]

I find it very very hard to believe the hitch weights 50 lbs. I can barely lift mine.

Has anyone figured add ons ?
Blue tote
Hitch
Battery or batteries 30/60 lbs
Propane tanks full are almost 100 lbs
Tv's
Pillows blankets
Food / beverages
Tools
outsIdeTable
Fire wood
Spare tire and holder
Water in Hw heater
Pots pans glasses plates
Silverware
Dog food
Bathroom supplies hair dryers etc etc
Lanterns and fuel
Outside chairs
Coolers filled with ice


I've always figured 1000 lbs add on weight for just things we bring to the camper for camping not including the dealer add ons.

Anything added ahead of front axle has an affect on pin weight.

Just my misc ramblings.

Turbs

[Dave_Monica]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I can't agree with what your dealer is telling you. Any 5th wheel hitch with slider is going to be a minimum of 150 lbs for a manual set-up upwards to 300 lbs for a auto-slider.

As far a pin weight and the weight change once it's loaded, you only have to look at the storage areas to visualize where the 1000 lbs of 'stuff' will go. On that floorplan, there is very little storage behind the axles...lots in front of them. You're forgetting the amount of gear that will be going into the basement storage under the bedroom. I don't see where you'd store gear and offset the added weight in front of the axles. Even if they offset, the loaded pin weight still increases. I'm pretty sure the the spec dry pin weight wouldn't include the battery or full propane bottles.

You're at the point of no return on the camper now. First thing I'd be doing is running the set-up over the scales and then see where you are. Having all your gear in the camper would be best when scaling it.

Dave

[MillerTime]

I wish you best of luck and I bet you enjoy the new 5er!!! Hope it all works out!!

I'm sure we all would love to give our opinion if you are ever In need of a new tv.

[rockwood06]

Originally Posted by Dave_Monica

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I can't agree with what your dealer is telling you. Any 5th wheel hitch with slider is going to be a minimum of 150 lbs for a manual set-up upwards to 300 lbs for a auto-slider.

As far a pin weight and the weight change once it's loaded, you only have to look at the storage areas to visualize where the 1000 lbs of 'stuff' will go. On that floorplan, there is very little storage behind the axles...lots in front of them. You're forgetting the amount of gear that will be going into the basement storage under the bedroom. I don't see where you'd store gear and offset the added weight in front of the axles. Even if they offset, the loaded pin weight still increases. I'm pretty sure the the spec dry pin weight wouldn't include the battery or full propane bottles.

You're at the point of no return on the camper now. First thing I'd be doing is running the set-up over the scales and then see where you are. Having all your gear in the camper would be best when scaling it.

Dave

Thanks Dave, more info to bring up at my next dealers meeting,...... tomorrow on the phone.

[rockwood06]

Originally Posted by MillerTime

I wish you best of luck and I bet you enjoy the new 5er!!! Hope it all works out!!

I'm sure we all would love to give our opinion if you are ever In need of a new tv.

MillerTime, When it comes time for another truck it will be another Chevy but I will run it by you all for approval