Sidewinder Dynamic Forces

[dalford]

I'm really intrigued by the Sidewinder 5th wheel hitch but just can't get into my head how it down not redistribute the pin weight 22 inches behind the axle. It seems to me without the SW hitch the pin weight is sitting on top of the 5th wheel hitch and rotating around the pin with the weight right over the axles. When you add the SW the new pin location is 22" behind its original location and there would seem to me be a lot of downward force on the 22" arm thus it wanting to pop up out of the 5th wheel hitch jaws.

[NMWildcat]

We have had the sidewinder on the last two rigs. Love them and have had no problems. As far as your thoughts about the kingpin wanting to 'pop out', I'm not sure how to alleviate your worry, but it is not a concern. The sidewinder is a very sturdy piece of equipment. There is no play in the 22" extension and the turret that supports it. So the down force is the same as original, weight on the base plate not the kingpin. Your pivot is just 22" back. I will never have a swb truck without using one. I don't have to worry about sliding anything, or watching the corners. It also causes the 5ver to track more closely to the truck. We have been parked nose to tail with other RVs at a rally and had to leave early. We hooked up 90 degrees to the rig and pulled out while everybody was watching and shaking their heads and telling me it wasn't going to work. We have the older style sidewinder that has 4 bolts on the turret top. I believe the newer Revolution has one large bolt but functions the same as far as I can tell. If you still have concerns please call them up and they will be happy to talk with you. http://www.reeseprod.com/contact

[dalford]

Originally Posted by NMWildcat

We have had the sidewinder on the last two rigs. Love them and have had no problems. As far as your thoughts about the kingpin wanting to 'pop out', I'm not sure how to alleviate your worry, but it is not a concern. The sidewinder is a very sturdy piece of equipment. There is no play in the 22" extension and the turret that supports it. So the down force is the same as original, weight on the base plate not the kingpin. Your pivot is just 22" back. I will never have a swb truck without using one. I don't have to worry about sliding anything, or watching the corners. It also causes the 5ver to track more closely to the truck. We have been parked nose to tail with other RVs at a rally and had to leave early. We hooked up 90 degrees to the rig and pulled out while everybody was watching and shaking their heads and telling me it wasn't going to work. We have the older style sidewinder that has 4 bolts on the turret top. I believe the newer Revolution has one large bolt but functions the same as far as I can tell. If you still have concerns please call them up and they will be happy to talk with you. Reese - Contact Reese

Thanks for the reply. I guess since it is only 22" back there is not much difference in the overall scheme of things but I would think there has to be some weight shift. I think of a teeter totter and the 22" arm being one side and the hitch being the fulcrum. I know there is not the other side of my teeter totter here but the principle is the same. The 22" arm wants to go down but in this case it is stopped by the jaws of the 5th wheel hitch. Must be negligible but I for some reason see a lot of force there.

Still looking at getting one though as everyone seems to be pretty happy with them.

I seem to remember some posts on here a while back where some users were having problems with them freezing up or something like that. I remember reading banging on it with a sledge hammer. Am I mistaken?

[NMWildcat]

Those folks were talking about the Revolution which actually has a slight difference in design and bearings even though everyone's says they are the same.

The one I have is the fifth airborne sidewinder: https://www.etrailer.com/Fifth-Wheel...e/RP61452.html

Notice it has 4 bolts on the top of the turret, where the revolution has one. This is my second sidewinder and while they are not easy to turn by hand, even my 120lb wife can turn it. Never had a problem with 'freezing' or groaning while turning. I also never lube it and it is 5 years old and used A LOT. I would highly recommend it. I got mine for half the price shown in the link through the dealer where I bought my fifth wheel. Good luck and I hope you find one that works for you.

[NMWildcat]

I forgot to add that I took it apart (dropped the turret) at 4 years to check for wear and found no discernible bearing wear. I sent pics into Reese and asked if I should lube it and they said it looks fine and to just clean the surfaces and put it back together. So I did

[NMWildcat]

Just read your post in another thread about your concern of the sidewinder shifting the load from the rear axle. Here is one article from an expert that might be helpful: https://www.etrailer.com/question-55026.html.

[dalford]

Originally Posted by NMWildcat

Just read your post in another thread about your concern of the sidewinder shifting the load from the rear axle. Here is one article from an expert that might be helpful: https://www.etrailer.com/question-55026.html.

Thanks NMwildcar..c Lightbulb just came on. The pin is already sticking out about 22" in front of where the pin box is bolted to the chassis...,duh... For some reason I kept seeing the pin right where the pin box is connected to the RV... Sometimes I can be a hardcore untrainable... I want a Sidewinder...

[Dr Safety]

Dalford, sorry for the late reply. It appears you have you answer. I will only add, with a qualifier that I am not an engineer, based on the construction ( 16,000 lbs) of a sidewinder and the length of the arm, the force is transferred directly to the hitch without the upward force you were concerned about.

[dalford]

Originally Posted by Dr Safety

Dalford, sorry for the late reply. It appears you have you answer. I will only add, with a qualifier that I am not an engineer, based on the construction ( 16,000 lbs) of a sidewinder and the length of the arm, the force is transferred directly to the hitch without the upward force you were concerned about.

Thanks Dr. Safety.. Makes sense to me now...

[dalford]

OK, I have heard from the folks who like their Sidewinder and I'm really interested in upgrading to it. I'm not really interested in a Pullrite or other auto slider due to added weight and many more moving parts. I will stay with my manual Reese slider unless someone can tell me the pitfalls of the Sidewinder, if any. I appreciate all constructive reviews.

[Scootertramp]

I have a question gents. I will be picking up my new Rockwood with a 16k Reese Revolution pin box this week. If you unhitch from the trailer and the pin box is turned say 30 degrees, will the pin box stay at the 30 degrees? I'm hoping it does because I believe I will have to hitch & unhitch at an angle where I will be storing the coach.

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by Scootertramp

I have a question gents. I will be picking up my new Rockwood with a 16k Reese Revolution pin box this week. If you unhitch from the trailer and the pin box is turned say 30 degrees, will the pin box stay at the 30 degrees? I'm hoping it does because I believe I will have to hitch & unhitch at an angle where I will be storing the coach.

If it is stiff yes it will stay at the angle you unhitch at. If it is loose like some peoples and can turn it by hand, you then could always put it back to the 30 degree your talking about. Alot of people will push them sideways in a CG so they don't hit it then push it back out to hitch. I personally like it being stiff and hard to push. I think it makes it easier to back into. Make sure you get the correct wedge for it. You can buy them at e-trailer, unless yours will take the universal one attached. What hitch do you have in the truck?.... PS: I see you live just west of Tahoe, use to have a ski cabin in Tahoe City.

[Scootertramp]

Originally Posted by Witch Doctor

If it is stiff yes it will stay at the angle you unhitch at. If it is loose like some peoples and can turn it by hand, you then could always put it back to the 30 degree your talking about. Alot of people will push them sideways in a CG so they don't hit it then push it back out to hitch. I personally like it being stiff and hard to push. I think it makes it easier to back into. Make sure you get the correct wedge for it. You can buy them at e-trailer, unless yours will take the universal one attached. What hitch do you have in the truck?.... PS: I see you live just west of Tahoe, use to have a ski cabin in Tahoe City.

Yes, we live up outside Placerville. I worked in SLT for years doing avalanche control and working on the traffic signals. Plan on setting up at Camp Richardson this Summer. It seems odd that some pin hitches move easily while others don't, eh.

[DaveSchwartz]

Yes, it stays where you unhitch. It does not self-center and takes a fair amount of force to turn.

The original on my 5er became impossible to turn by hand, even with a 2x4 up the back as a lever. Took it in and the dealer replaced under warranty with OK from FR. Now it can be turned with a pretty good shove (not really loose by any means).

In the winter, I turn it 90 degrees to the left so I don't bonk my noggin on it so much when clearing snow. That and the pin lock means no one but me is going to pull it out of the driveway either.

[jz5w63]

Just did first long haul with my 2014 FR 8285IKW from Detroit to Lexington in heavy side wind gusts. Have always used it as a traditional non swivel pull in that securing bolts were left in and pin rotated in hitch - standard format. Never had any issues in all wind conditions at pulls of 70 - 75 mph. Today twice my Ram smart pull had to auto engage brakes to quiet fishtailing at 65 mph. Scared the S out of me. When I think about it now, that 22 inches behind the axle is leverage sideways pull that can cause the back of the truck to wander just like a travel trailer without sway bracing. One trip and I'm ready to put the old slider hitch back on and rebolt the "failed revolution" back in its fixed straight on position. I guess if you haven't tried pulling in both scenarios you might think this swivel stick is ok but apart from never having to adjust a slider or fearing tight turns it otherwise is UNSAFE , IMHO. Prefer the pin pivoting over my rear axle!

[dalford]

Originally Posted by jz5w63

Just did first long haul with my 2014 FR 8285IKW from Detroit to Lexington in heavy side wind gusts. Have always used it as a traditional non swivel pull in that securing bolts were left in and pin rotated in hitch - standard format. Never had any issues in all wind conditions at pulls of 70 - 75 mph. Today twice my Ram smart pull had to auto engage brakes to quiet fishtailing at 65 mph. Scared the S out of me. When I think about it now, that 22 inches behind the axle is leverage sideways pull that can cause the back of the truck to wander just like a travel trailer without sway bracing. One trip and I'm ready to put the old slider hitch back on and rebolt the "failed revolution" back in its fixed straight on position. I guess if you haven't tried pulling in both scenarios you might think this swivel stick is ok but apart from never having to adjust a slider or fearing tight turns it otherwise is UNSAFE , IMHO. Prefer the pin pivoting over my rear axle!

Interesting.. I have not bought a SW yet and appreciate your input. So are you saying you have driven the same truck and trailer in the same wind conditions and the only variable is the revolution hitch engaged to swivel?

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by jz5w63

Just did first long haul with my 2014 FR 8285IKW from Detroit to Lexington in heavy side wind gusts. Have always used it as a traditional non swivel pull in that securing bolts were left in and pin rotated in hitch - standard format. Never had any issues in all wind conditions at pulls of 70 - 75 mph. Today twice my Ram smart pull had to auto engage brakes to quiet fishtailing at 65 mph. Scared the S out of me. When I think about it now, that 22 inches behind the axle is leverage sideways pull that can cause the back of the truck to wander just like a travel trailer without sway bracing. One trip and I'm ready to put the old slider hitch back on and rebolt the "failed revolution" back in its fixed straight on position. I guess if you haven't tried pulling in both scenarios you might think this swivel stick is ok but apart from never having to adjust a slider or fearing tight turns it otherwise is UNSAFE , IMHO. Prefer the pin pivoting over my rear axle!

I have pulled several 5vers both with and without the sidewinder in heavy cross winds. Never experienced any fish tailing either way. The only thing the 22" changes is the pivot point, no weight movement at all, all forces are still at the kingpin over the axle. I think you had something else going on, like loading problems. The sidewise leverage you mentioned doesn't make any sense to me, and I have never seen any claims anywhere, that a sidewinder caused fishtailing. Hate to see a great product denigrated without substantiation.

[Witch Doctor]

I Prefer the sidewinder on my set up short bed Ford F-250, been using it for over 4 years now. I have traveled across the USA on 40 south (old R-66) and came back north on 80 never ever did I fish tail. I really don't understand how it could. I would have to think something else was wrong and it wasn't the sidewinder IMO. Did you have the right dedicated wedge in for your hitch? I can think that if the wedge was not tight in the jaws then that could happen, but I'm not going to test my theory. I started out with the supplied wedge, and it was a little lose IMO, I have a husky 16 K., I ordered the correct recommended Wedge from etailer. Then it became rock solid. Yours is the first I heard of this problem. I would give it another try they are a great answer for a short bed truck....:and safe travels...

[jz5w63]

Originally Posted by NMWildcat

I have pulled several 5vers both with and without the sidewinder in heavy cross winds. Never experienced any fish tailing either way. The only thing the 22" changes is the pivot point, no weight movement at all, all forces are still at the kingpin over the axle. I think you had something else going on, like loading problems. The sidewise leverage you mentioned doesn't make any sense to me, and I have never seen any claims anywhere, that a sidewinder caused fishtailing. Hate to see a great product denigrated without substantiation.

Look at it like this, you have the pin tongue locked into the hitch with the wedge as if you had 22 inch pry bar in there with the side forces of the trailer applied to it when it starts fishtailing - basic physics. Yes, this was the only change to my towing setup - the switch to using the revolution. Worse than my first two mishaps as we got to I75 south north of Port Charlotte we hit a stretch of repaving work. At 50 mph in center lane of 3 construction lanes we hit a bridge dip in the road with some sideways bumps and the trailer and truck fishtailed wildly scattering cars on both sides. This time I thought we were going to rock right over on our side but again truck automatic brakes and my own application brought it under control. The action was so severe that it was like a bomb went off inside with broken glass everywhere and everything scattered about. The slideouts each side had rocked open at top and scattered stuff and 3 squished cans of beer jammed under the momentarily raised slideouts floor jamming the top of the slideouts open. We limped the rest of the way to Naples where we were able to free up the slide and clear and clean everything. I have decided to put the securing bolts back in the Revolution to re-fix it and buy a new slider bed for the trip back or attempt it wit my fixed Reuse Pro 16K without its former slider rails (at home). This Revolution seemed wonderful when transporting the trailer around near home from and to our storage area but I noticed the difference on the long highway run as it tended to wander or shimmy side to side due to road variations and side wind and really badly in gusts and that one series of bumps near Port Charlotte. Before this with the same Reed 16K Pro hitch and its companion slider base and 5 previous trips to Florida and other areas the truck/trailer were absolutely rock solid even at 75 mph. All I did was buy the proper Reuse wedge for the hitch/pin tongue ( the universal one they give you is not universal) and buy and install Reuse fixed legs for the hitch to replace the slider since they say you can't use a Revolution with a slider. Allbolts torques to specification and installed per instructions. I am a retired automotive industry mechanical engineering graduate so I understand mechanics and forces. In my opinion I would not run a Revolution hitch over 40 mph. By the way I had new rubber on truck and trailer and pressures all around were right on the button. I can't explain it any other way except that the action points of trsier forces are behind the truck axle although the pin weight is still over the axles. If you draw it out you will see what I mean. There are others in this Forum who have pointed out the flaw of the action point behind the rear axle. Perhaps if you have duelies it may not be as significant but on my ultralight (8000 lbs dry) behind my half ton (10500 towing, 1500 pin weight) the Revolution is an accident waiting to happen. I will never use it again in its swivel position. I am actually going to go to a Patriot 18K slider which has better slider and pin jaws features than the Reese Pro 16K which is noisier and jerkier though adequate. I might as well upgrade if I have to buy a new slider. If others haven't had these bad experiences with the Revolution or Sidewinder I would be interested to know what the differences might be. I did notice on my Revolution that after taking out the 2 securing bolts I could not move it by hand or even with a deadblow rubber mallet but after hooking up with the truck it shifted side to side under power with no problem. Now after 1500 miles I can easily swivel it by hand when unhooked. Also as others have experience the is a 1/4 inch gap at the back of the swivel pin box between the upper stationary and lower swivel parts. I have not adjusted the torque of the swivel castle nut. All other bolts on hitch, pin box, wedge are solid.

[Witch Doctor]

I still do not see how that can happen, not that I doubt you. I have over 25,000 miles on my trailer and never had it move as you stated. You mentioned a dry weight 8000#, and I guess the 10,000# is the max you can toe or at least rated for, then you said it's a 1/2 ton. Have you ever taken to the scales? mine is 3/4 ton so maybe that is the difference, what tires and size are they on your TV? This is interesting to me being I have NEVER heard of this with anyone. Also who told you you can't pull a revolution with a slider? My Husky 16K is a slider, No problem and I have never read that anywhere. Where you in the slider extended position when towing that will do it, but not in the normal towing position....I would call Reese and see what they say before I start throwing money into anything. I'm pretty sure it's not your hitch... PS: I'm not with the weight police, but I would hit the scales if I were you, how did you get the pin weight? my pin weight is alot more then that.