Specifics on payload shortage........

[BandJCarm]

I need some specific information.

I no longer participate (much) in discussions about which truck pulls which trailer best. It always boils down to "I already own X truck and I want to validate pulling Y trailer". I know what I have and why. I got what I have mostly because of some very helpful information here over a year ago, and it made sense. If there are only two sides.......Weight Police and Mavericks, I guess I have a Badge!

That said, I need some actual information. I am in discussions with several folks regarding Payload, Carrying Capacity, CCC, whatever you call it. These are guys pulling 5th wheels with 3/4 tons and 1 ton SRW's, and IMHO they are way over payload.

I can make the argument of WHY they are over. I can do the right math. I can show them how to calculate truck capacity and payload, etc.

What I can't seem to do is adequately answer (for them) the question of "So what?". In other words, they ask what SPECIFIC problems being a little over on Payload causes. What are they breaking? What is wearing out too soon? What is the safety problem? Spell it out.

And while I can do some of that......I'm not making a strong case. They claim they travel the U.S. just fine. One is a full timer. They go through mountains, from California to New York to Florida, moving constantly, and have zero issues (according to them).

SO............what is the exact problem with being way over on Payload???

[doc73]

I have decided I do not care what people do with their crap at this point... They own it so good luck. Too many (myself included) worry too much about others choices.

That said, I really think it is a legal thing mostly. The truck is over by the law and might be a monetary loss if caught to include fines or impoundment of said combination.

If they are f350 sized pulling with the 250 (similar to Chevy, not sure about dodge) they are mostly the same so I have read... Now this is from reading not personal knowledge. In that case I'd say they will probably not break too much other than maybe wear out their rear springs?

250/350 when it should be a duelly.. I could see tires failing (from being overloaded) or rear springs failing. But the engine and Trans are probably the same in the end?

F150's when it should be 350 and beyond is where I'd see issues. The grocery getters are not meant for heavy hauling of some of these monsters trailers. I tow with a 2500 because I want to, my 1500 did fine but this truck is much better to tow so I do see how the smaller truck is adequate at times.

I used Ford, I own Chevy, but these opinions of mine would work across all the makers.

[BandJCarm]

Your comments are interesting, considering you have the exact same setup we had before we got the 5th wheel in 2016.

We towed the 26DBH with a 1/2 ton (still own it), and wasn't happy. That was way before I ever got on this site. I bought a 2500 and it did great. I assumed it would pull the 5th wheel.........found out differently.........(although many are doing it). But the difference in towing that Grey Wolf with a 1/2 ton and the 3/4 diesel was enormous.

[great white]

Id it were me, I'd just let it go.

No sense trying to change the mind of folks that have made their decision to tow over rating and are happy with it.

Without knowing what the OEM is limiting the GVWR for, it's pointless to discuss it. The number is what the number is. Guessing what will happen over the rating is always going to be just that: guessing. Could be handling issues, degraded braking performance, longevity, metal fatigue, headlights pointing too high, etc, etc....

The trailer tow rating is a little different. There's actual testing parameters under the SAE J2807 that the OEM's have to meet to give the truck the rating for both conventional trailers and 5th wheels. Note that many OEM's will just throw a driver in a truck with the curb weight as it comes off the showroom floor, so they can snug right up to the maximum trailer at hte truck's maximum possible cargo weight. Real life is always a little different, as owners always carry and add "stuff" that wasn't on/in the truck when it came off the line. You also have to consider that when the OEM's test for trailer weight, they're not towing a "normal" trailer. Everyone thinks testing looks something like this:



When in actual fact, it looks like this (for Ford at least):



That's a rolling "dyno sled" that Ford uses to simulate the SAE J2807 test parameters. Perfectly acceptable to simulate by J2807, but anyone who has towed a travel trailer can see what the problem is with that rig for the rating right away: no aerodynamic drag. I know if you look up my truck in the Ford towing guide, any travel trailer or fifth wheel is over the maximum frontal area allowed. You pretty much have to be towing a flatbed or lower covered utility trailer to be under the max allowable frontal area, even though my truck is rated (by Ford published numbers) for a 12,100 lb trailer. Doesn't get any/much better for the 250/350 trucks either. You'd have to look up the GM or Dodge trucks to know if they are any different that way as I don't know off hand.

The GVWR, to my understanding, is an engineering/warranty/liability decision the OEM makes in house. What's going to happen over the rating only the OEM knows, and they are not telling....

I, personally, tow well under all my numbers except cargo and the aforementioned frontal area with my F150 (max trailer towing package). I regularly scale within 100 or so pounds of my payload but frontal area is over the limit. But even given that, I'm quite comfortable with the way the truck handles in simulated emergency maneuvers when I tried it in empty parking lots and how it performs out on the open road.

[doc73]

Originally Posted by BandJCarm

Your comments are interesting, considering you have the exact same setup we had before we got the 5th wheel in 2016.

We towed the 26DBH with a 1/2 ton (still own it), and wasn't happy. That was way before I ever got on this site. I bought a 2500 and it did great. I assumed it would pull the 5th wheel.........found out differently.........(although many are doing it). But the difference in towing that Grey Wolf with a 1/2 ton and the 3/4 diesel was enormous.

Let me apologies, my comment about worrying about ones self was not directed at you or being critical of you.. I re-read it and it felt like I was being harsh.

I pulled a large pup with a lifted Jeep TJ. It was not a good choice but I was new, not on here and very UNEDUCATED. I through air bags on it and towed the thing all over the NE, but I had to be careful and had no idea how close I could have been to disaster.

I had a 1500 because it towed the RW 2306 Mini lite we had when we bought my 1500. It towed great comparing it to the Chevy SUV I towed it with prior.. Each time learning a bit more. The 2500 came because I wanted to use my cruise control, wanted to "fly" in comfort and not need to ever worry about the Grey Wolf again. I say all this because you are right.. You have NO IDEA what you are missing when you do go out and get a truck that just does not "just get by" with its specs. While the diesel might not be for all (it was for me due to its same pricing as the gas 2500) the stability of the truck alone made the purchase worth it. I can now (kidding) pull a house and probably my shed too without even a bit of concern.

Even then I see a 3500 in my future for the next trailer (most likely a 5er) but that will be in 8 or so more years (by our 10 year plan). The truck will be around another 10 years or so... That leaves us a 1 or 2 year gap of a 5er and a 2500. The 5ers we are looking at are in the 35ft range but the pin kills my payload quick. But, for a time I will probably tow it with the 2500. Ideal, no, but in the end I am paying for the truck not the next guy so I will live with my choices.

[IMG]IMG_4517 by doc736, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]IMG_4511 by doc736, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]IMG_0715 by doc736, on Flickr[/IMG]

[furtrader]

"what's the problem with being over loaded" It all boils down to the law. If one is involved in an accident and its determined you are over loaded, you will under most circumstances
be charged with criminal vehicular negligence. Vehicular negligence falls under criminal law and as such opens the door not only to financial lawsuits but also to prison time should your negligence cause death. Google "criminal vehicular negligence" better yet ask a lawyer that
handles criminal cases.

[BandJCarm]

I need facts, more than "it's against the law". I need (or want, actually) to know what physical and technical problems being overloaded causes.

Not getting real answers. Hmmmmmm. I know that I don't know!!! I have no clue what damage it might cause. But I need damage expectations, towing anomalies, not just law. Meaning, I won't win any discussions with nothing but "law" on my side.

[Jeff_and_Abby]

Wouldn't be so much worried about the synthetic constructs of a lawyered-up society, but instead consider the physics of it all.

"Gravity Wins."
Force = Mass times Acceleration
etc, etc ...

Heat is a unique enemy ... tires, transmission, engine ... "Thermodynamics."

If your equipment is behaving within reason, then you probably are doing it "right."

But ... just because you are unaware of a problem, doesn't mean it's not there.

Do your own math ... in the end, you will know what you can and can not, should and should not, do ...

[lswartz]

My transmission failed 2x before I discovered I was overweight. It was a Chevy custom van pulling a 25 ft Mallard TT. Both transmission shops said I was OK as did the TT dealer. Chevy said I was overweight when I called them direct.

This was a few years back (maybe an 88 Chevy van) so I don't remember the weights. I am sure it was less then 500 lbs. overweight.

[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by BandJCarm

I need some specific information.


That said, I need some actual information. I am in discussions with several folks regarding Payload, Carrying Capacity, CCC, whatever you call it. These are guys pulling 5th wheels with 3/4 tons and 1 ton SRW's, and IMHO they are way over payload.

What I can't seem to do is adequately answer (for them) the question of "So what?". In other words, they ask what SPECIFIC problems being a little over on Payload causes. What are they breaking? What is wearing out too soon? What is the safety problem? Spell it out.

Well, I have that badge too. I pulled a TT in the '70s with a Plymouth Fury III that did a better job than some of todays half tons will. That was before crew cabs and needed a place for the kids. Moved to a half and realized it was a joke, thankfully the Ramcharger (full size) did great in the early '80s. Bought an F250 for the bigger TT and the diesel killed the payload. Went to an F350 and 35' 5er. Currently pulling a Montana High Country. The High Country models are SAID to be 3/4 towable. Not IMO as a diesel will be over payload and gasser over GWVR and CVWR. I'm pulling with a SRW and experience no problems and being under on every number. Surely I'd be one OP considers under-trucked as it is a 43' 5er. Cushion of about 10% or more on all numbers.
Pulled a 10,000# boat only 70 miles each way every weekend. 1st tranny replaced under warranty, then fixed under warranty. As warranty was running out and tranny slipping again the RANGER was traded. So ~~ trannys break when over towing capacity for sure.

[Gary Dup]

If you have ever been 3/4 the way up an eleven thousand foot mountain pass in Colorado with a truck that will pull anything (so I was told) and look at your temp and transmission gages pegged to the right side, you will understand why there are payload limits. All you can do is hope for a pullout, which fortunately was around the next curve, and then sit and let everything cool down. Got a new truck that had the proper payload numbers and have not had a problem since.

[CedarCreekWoody]

Mechanically I would be most concerned about the transmission. Pulling over weight strains it, causing it to heat up, which in turn shortens fluid life and can burn out the seals causing leaks and other failures.
But my biggest concern is trailer sway and control while towing. It may tow great at times but things get real dicey very quickly in unstable conditions (wind, rain, steep grades, emergency stops or maneuvering, etc). The tail does indeed start wagging the dog and they better hope they have enough "dog" to control it!

[grandpamuck]

I drive a 2012 Dodge 2500 gasser. The hemi works quite well except on hills. Al I do is sit back and let it climb comfortably, not pushing it. I pull 30ft 5er. The trailer is a lightweight model and handles exceptionally well. I maintain my rigs, which I believe also keeps everything in hand. I also weigh my vehicles periodically. My weights are different for my uses. If family camping close by, I carry more. On the open road, less. BUT, I do net exceed the limits. Try to stay at least close to 700 below. I am no engineer and do not claim it all. I figure if these people say this is the limit, why should I question it. I do not want to kill someone or myself over a few pounds of cargo. Not calling people stupid, or putting them down, but I think if you need that much 'stuff', get a rig that can handle it.

[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by grandpamuck

I drive a 2012 Dodge 2500 gasser. The hemi works quite well except on hills. Al I do is sit back and let it climb comfortably, not pushing it. I pull 30ft 5er. The trailer is a lightweight model and handles exceptionally well. I maintain my rigs, which I believe also keeps everything in hand. I also weigh my vehicles periodically. My weights are different for my uses. If family camping close by, I carry more. On the open road, less. BUT, I do net exceed the limits. Try to stay at least close to 700 below. I am no engineer and do not claim it all. I figure if these people say this is the limit, why should I question it. I do not want to kill someone or myself over a few pounds of cargo. Not calling people stupid, or putting them down, but I think if you need that much 'stuff', get a rig that can handle it.

I have the badge but as you prove maintenance and common sense means a lot. Some think anything over a popup requires a diesel dually. BTW tried a new dually once. That lasted 7 months. Uncomfortable to drive and parking in the back 40 was a pain. So I buy the 5er to be under truck ratings using gvwr and 20% for pw.

[bikendan]

Many of those that have the "so what" attitude, seem to be proud that they are over payload.
It may be some kinda of macho thing that they can beat their chest about or brag about.

As a retired firefighter/EMT, I have seen what happens when people exceed the limits of their vehicles, most a result of pushing the envelope.
And I've seen how this behavior results in harming innocent people.

[dmdomokos]

I think this thread started out asking the same question I asked on another thread with the same results. No hard examples. I asked those with 3/4 ton diesels real would examples of legal issues, mechanical issues of being over CCC. What I got was no documentation on bad things happening and a whole lot of it being done with no issues. So I decided I could upgrade to probably a 35' fifth wheel that would put me over CCC by 300 or so lbs based on tires and GVAR. Lots of threads on this issue. Just walk a campground! But like ALL threads stated, it's what your comfortable with as safe and doable. And those opinions are vast.

[BandJCarm]

Well, I really did want some concrete information. Data. Facts.

So far, my buddy that I'm talking to (one of 'em) just answers "Every SRW vehicle is over Payload on big fifth wheels. But you don't see them crashing, no reports of it, no reports of failures, no reports of breakdowns, nothing. You DO see and read and hear that it's done just fine and there are no issues. This is based on same drivetrain and engine. It also DOES matter about tires and axles. BUT just saying a truck is over payload from the sticker is not enough to make me worry. IF you can tell me what problems I'm actually causing, I'll listen".

He IS considering going to 17.5" wheels and tires to get about 4,000 lb capacity per tire. But he says that's just overkill to be safe, NOT really needed.

And I have no valid reply..................

[Crusadernoob]

Tires are the first thing to look at, the max load at the max pressure. Drivetrain from 250/2500 will mostly be the same, brakes will be the same, to a 350/3500. The spring pack will have a leaf or two more from 250/2500 to a 350/3500. So from a 3/4 ton to a 1 ton, really minimal spring pack or helper spring. The only other thing in this equation would obviously be a dually.

[KingFisher]

I guess I'm lucky I'm not in prison for yanking that 32 footer around with my 1978 heavy half chevy back in the 80's. No sway, no problems stopping, no internet, I didn't know I was wrong.

I don't like seeing half tons pulling big fifths nowadays, but I just either let them go by or get the hell away from them. I won't give advice unless it's asked for. I'm not going to be paying for the repairs and I figure it's none of my business. I guess it's the police's business since internet weight police keep bringing up "breaking the law".

When it comes to the registration scheme between 2500 and 3500, I'm not going to pay much attention to my payload sticker. I'm registered to 12,000 pounds, so far as the state of IL cares my payload is 4,000 even though my sticker on my door says it's close to 2400. I'm not sure they care anyhow. My next trailer will have an advertised pin weight of 2050 which means it will probably actually be 2700. I'm going to do it anyway. I'll upgrade my tires and probably add the extra spring they put on the 3500hd's. If I win the lottery tonight I'll buy a dually or a freightliner m2, but probably won't happen.

Not worried about tranny, not worried about power, not worried about rear end. Same parts. Registration scheme on paper so some people won't have to pay extra to the government and they can keep selling those trucks. If I was ordering I'd have bought a 3500hd but I got a great deal on this 2500hd with only 25000 miles.

[Crusadernoob]

I'd end the talk of it with them, it's not worth the air you breath, they don't care.