Staying within trucks specs vs. exceeding them - from thread hijack

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by QCCowboy

Better get some more popping.......or whatever your preferred snack of choice is......

So question for everyone. As we make comparisons of ag and farm vehicles hauling hay, grain, implements, etc. and being overweight as compared to hauling a fifth wheel for recreational purposes, is this an apples to apples comparison? Is speed a factor that needs to be taken into consideration in relation to weight, braking, safety to the driver and passengers as well as to everyone else on the road with them? During planting/harvest I dont remember to many of these vehicles passing me at 55 mph or faster fully loaded (and yes i do agree that they haul what we would consider overweight all the time). But the DW does say I have a short term memory

There a worlds of ag use towing situations that involve long miles and high speeds. If you look closely at some of my previous examples they include hauling hay, equipment, and cattle. For example: The last several years there has been an extreme drought in many Southern states. There were literally thousands upon thousands of loads of hay hauled down from Northern states. Many of these were done with 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. There was absolutely NO WAY that these loads were all within spec. And they weren't making 2000 mile round trips at 50mph, either. As someone mentioned earlier, many of these trucks probably were "maxed out" according to payload specs as soon as a 30' dovetail was attached. And this was before loading 15-20K of round bales on the trailer. Same thing when hauling cattle. Many people travel hundreds of miles each way to haul cattle to certain sales where the prices are higher- or sometimes out of necessity. A few cows moving forward a few feet will DRASTICALLY alter the pin weight of the load. I'm simply using these scenarios to point out that there are MANY scenarios where people haul safely and without incident when there is ABSOLUTELY no way they could be as anal and specific about weights as many RVers try to be even if they wanted to.

Quick question: When manufactures are trying to "sue-proof" themselves with these ratings, do you think they are making assumptions that the load will be evenly distributed, solid, and hauled with an experienced driver??? Based upon my experience of seeing all of the idiotic warning labels on things that aren't needed for anyone with even an iota of intelligence, I tend to lean toward thinking those ratings are EXTREMELY conservative.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by Scratch

I'm sure you somehow think your point is valid as result of your logic...

You were referring to passenger aircraft and about not boarding one, nothing about military aircraft, I simply ask how you would know the passenger aircraft was overloaded. Have fun & enjoy camping.

[Scratch]

Its all good, OldCoot. Happy camping back to ya...

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by ependydad

The most important thing that I want to convey is something I said in an earlier post - I don't care if someone else overloads their truck as long as they do it knowingly. Know how to calculate your payload. Know how to determine if you're overloaded or not. If you are going to tow overloaded, do it knowingly and within your own justification. It's just not for me.




I answered this in an earlier post - they are ratings. The owner's manual describes them as such. I'd still like to see your official documentation where they're described as recommendations.

Fine, they are ratings and not "recommendations". I still contend that there is NO WAY that a manufacturer can put a sticker on the door of a truck and claim that this is THE point at which you become unsafe with so many variables that aren't accounted for. It's not like a load rating on rope or cable where you know with a level of certainty at what point it will break. I also still contend that it takes a LOT more weight to "break" a truck than the GVWR. Therefore, the GVWR can only be determined by making assumptions about those variables- and I say they are probably worst case scenario assumptions. Why is it that our trailers GVWR is EXACTLY the weight rating of the axles plus tongue weight, yet a trucks doesn't reflect the axle ratings????

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

Why is it that our trailers GVWR is EXACTLY the weight rating of the axles plus tongue weight, yet a trucks doesn't reflect the axle ratings????

My *guess* is that they reflect the weakest link somewhere with some level of padding. No clue, though.

[dustman_stx]

How did we get to talking about aircraft? Obviously a completely different animal. I'm not getting on a plane unless I'm dragged onto it no matter how it is loaded.

[TURBS]

I'll post my same comment here as the split thread.


I can surely sum this whole thread up..


Just because we tow at or slightly above posted manufactures limits doesn't mean we should persuade someone to do the same because WE do it.

Some of you, like me may have 20+ years of towing experience where as brandon327 might not .
So given OUR experience should we tell someone of lesser experience "if that's the case or not" to go ahead with a "highly disputed towing scenario?


Turbs

[prof_fate]

Big problem with this scenario - I can put E rated tires on a base F150 and be 'legal' in alberta even though I can load more than double what Ford says the truck can haul.

Having been a mechanic for 15 years and hobbyist for twice that I can assure you that as the payload rating of the truck goes up more than tires are changed - axles and bearings and housings are much different. Most DRW setups have 'floating axles' so that if you break an axle the wheels don't come off the truck. Springs get heavier and more in number. Frames get bigger in cross section. Brakes get bigger. Calipers, pads and master cylinders get bigger as well.

What you can carry/haul is limited by the 'weakest link' in the chain. You can physically put a 10k trailer on a class 1 hitch....but why would you want to?

My 1500 came with 4 ply P tires. If I put 10 ply E tires on it i've not turned it into a 3500. NO way, NO how.

Originally Posted by jcrayford

When researching this prior to buying our trailer, this was one of my main concerns. Went out to the local highway scales and asked the ones that enforce it here in Alberta.

The LEO stated that "as a general practice, we don't look at the sticker on the door. We look at what the tires are rated for, multiple by 2 (for SRW) and then subract truck weight at rear axle. This gives us pin allowance"

When I bought the trailer, I took what the trailer label stated the hitch weight was and calculated that I was indeed under the LEO's definition. I'm under the label on the door of the truck too, but there is definitely a difference between the two.

Again, this is what was told to me as it applies to Alberta. The LEO also said that this method would be applicable to BC as well (but I'm not sure about SK or the US)

I still want room using either calculation as I don't want to overload the truck. I would say that if you're anywhere close on the limits of door label / tires, look into something bigger truck wise....

J.

[prof_fate]

Small but significant point here -

You mention hauling hay/ag often - what, everyday, a few times a week? And where? Most likely at 20-40mph on farm roads. And I bet you're alone in the truck most of that time.

Vs an RVr that tows on the hiway, in a truck with kids/dogs, 5 times a year - if that.

Experience makes a BIG difference in what is 'safe' and what is not. I'd never ride a wheelie at 100mph plus down the road on a sportbike, yet i know many people that do just that. I can back up my TT 10 times better now than when I first got it. I can parallel park anything on the first try on either side of the road - I lived for 10 years on a one way street and did it thousands of times yet some can't parallel park to save their lives.

Is 55mph a 'safe' speed? Is 70? Are these 'limits' or 'recomendations' and where do they come from? I've driven 140+ on 55mp roads without incident yet I'd never suggest anyone do that as a matter of course. Often speed limits are based on things from 50 years ago when cars had manual drum brakes, but then traffic is more dense today and drivers a lot more distracted, but people drive more today so the experience helps, right?
So if you do 70 on a dark and stormy night vs noon on a sunny day are you taking any more risk? Yes, of course you are.

Just the same as if you load above the specs listed in your manual/sticker.

But you can't beleve everything you read or any 'midsize' suv could tow my TT - FR had a sticker inside that said it was possible!

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

Let's go ahead and make it a good show for those that are watching!!!!

I love hypothetical situations, so I'll attempt to show how following the "ratings" can actually be less safe.

Let's assume you have a max tow rating of 16,000 and a max payload of 2,000. For those familiar with 3/4 ratings, this wouldn't be hard to find. It would be very easy, especially when hauling equipment and such on a dovetail for example, to stay within this spec. But you are only at 12.5% pin weight with that combo- most would undoubtedly say this is not safe- but, hey it's within spec for the truck. Keep in mind that there is no legal requirement to stay at 20-25% pin weight, but, obviously logic prevails that this would not be a safe load.

I'll also take this time to point out that everyone here is obviously NOT involved in the ag industry. You'd spend 95% of your time on scales if you were dogmatic and anal about your weights. How would you pick up a load of round bales? Probably wouldn't be any scales handy and the weight of them can vary tremendously based upon moisture content and variations in size. When loading a tractor can you guarantee you will get it in exactly the same position each time and therefore be able to duplicate pin weight exactly every time? What if you haul random combinations of equipment? What about when hauling cattle and they can move shifting the pin weight by hundreds of pounds either way. Yet thousands of people haul like this everyday. Granted, an RV is more predictable. I'm simply trying to point out that the specs are RECOMMENDATIONS. You will not and do not become unsafe the moment you exceed one of them. If you want to be anal about staying within spec, go ahead. But acting as though someone is making a deadly decision and should be chastised accordingly because they exceed payload capacity is elementary at best. If I had my "druthers" I'd take an experienced driver at 20% over versus a newbie at 20% under any day of the week.

[bakken]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

Fine, they are ratings and not "recommendations". I still contend that there is NO WAY that a manufacturer can put a sticker on the door of a truck and claim that this is THE point at which you become unsafe with so many variables that aren't accounted for. It's not like a load rating on rope or cable where you know with a level of certainty at what point it will break. I also still contend that it takes a LOT more weight to "break" a truck than the GVWR. Therefore, the GVWR can only be determined by making assumptions about those variables- and I say they are probably worst case scenario assumptions. Why is it that our trailers GVWR is EXACTLY the weight rating of the axles plus tongue weight, yet a trucks doesn't reflect the axle ratings????

Comparing a tow vehicle's GVWR to the breaking strength of a rope is ridiculous.
Vehicle load ratings are determined with hundreds of thousands of miles and millions of load cycles in mind. It has nothing to do with what will "break" the truck.
While overloading one's TV will not break it immediately, the wear and tear and potntial for eventual failure obviously increases. Arguing otherwise is pointless.
As a structural engineer, I have knowledge on my side.

[prof_fate]

I've sent the quesiton to my brother in law, a GM engineer for 22 years to see what he says.

SAE has a tow ratings based on real world testing.

Here GM adjusted the ratings from 2012 to 2013 trucks, some by as little as 200 lbs. That is a small change...one average passenger or perhaps a big dog.
Tow Ratings Adjust for 2013 GM Pickups - PickupTrucks.com News

To quote from the article -

"The reduction in trailer weight ratings for 2013 is a result of SAE J2807,” said Dean Perelli, chief engineer for GM trucks. “J2807 applies to all vehicles that are 13,000 pounds GVWR and below, therefore affecting all light-duty and some heavy-duty pickup trucks.”

In the past, each manufacturer set its own criteria for tow ratings. There was no uniform test procedure in the same manner that the Society of Automotive Engineers sets down for promoting engine horsepower numbers or standard procedures the EPA uses to determine estimated fuel economy. Without a common industry standard, it was tricky for truck shoppers to compare tow ratings fairly and accurately against other brands. Inexperienced truck consumers were especially vulnerable because they could be misled into believing the “maximum” tow rating used in advertising applied to every model in a particular truck line.

About the SAE rating system Tow Ratings Finally Pass the Sniff Test - The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) - Automobile Magazine

So CAN your truck haul more? yes, but it won't pass 'the test'. Is this an issue? Those that design and build the vehicles we drive seem to think so.

Originally Posted by Ragin Cajun

This discussion (Forum) really needs a auto engineer who designs these trucks to weigh in on the cold hard facts about all this tow capability stuff!

If your out there, please reply! LOL

[Lynkage]

Maybe we should ask the trucking industry to use 3/4 ton trucks and 80k. Load them till they scrape the ground. If it isn't broke you're go to go!

I would have to say that going on a public forum and telling ANYONE it is ok to go over the ratings of their vehicles is just uncalled for.

That in itself is a dis-service to the members of our forum who are trying to understand and learn how to make a good choice about what they can tow and what they should avoid.

my 2 peanuts.

OT The sun is shining and it is 65 degrees outside and I am ready to go camping!

[prof_fate]

Define 'safe' then.
You did it and never had an accident - it must have been safe then, right?

"safe" usually comes down to stopping distance or accident avoidance, mech failure while driving (hit a pothole and lose a spring, then the load shifts and you have an accident).

Originally Posted by jtstromsburg

Like i mentioned in a previous post, most construction companies, around here, haul overloaded daily. Once in a while a statie will stop them, but usually they are ticketed for not having a cdl. One small company i used to work for still runs a 97 chevy 3500 drw 454, with a 12' flatbed with boxes, both full of tools, and typically a 40' gooseneck with concrete forms, 700lbs of steel stakes, and two 10K lb skid steers. Runs speed limit, never any major truck service needed. That's how i used to tow. After getting my first tt two years ago, i have learned i was terribly unsafe all those years. Yet, i never had a problem? Does that make what i did right or ok? probably not, but for people who have towed popups or the similar, and read weight ratings, to decide they know more than the guys who pull 90% of the time just doesn't make sense to me.

That is all, but i may post in this thread again.

[prof_fate]

I've been in court as an 'expert witness' on a couple of occassions on motocycle accidents.

"did the modification to the vehicle contribute the accident" was one issue, and the second was "who last worked on it, did they see the deficiency and did the inform the owner of it"

In these cases the prosecution/plaintiff was trying to identify the 'guilty party'- the one responsible for the accident/injury.

Yes, the guy pulled out in front of you and you hit him because 'you couldnt stop in time' - so whos fault, who pays? Him because he pulled out? You because you were 4k over the limit and your brakes just weren't capable of stopping you short of 100 yards?

You can drive like an idiot - or overload like one or fail to maintain your vehicle like one.
Now slide into a school bus and have bald tires on your car. Yes, I think your insurance company will pay but YOU are at fault for driving with bald tires.

You can smoke and consumer suger and not excersize and get sick and your insurance will pay. But wouldnt being healthy be a better, wiser choice?

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

Since someone brought up the legality of not exceeding the sticker weight- according to statements by LEOs on other forums, there is nothing legally binding about the sticker on the door of your truck. That sticker doesn't even have to be there. Do you fear being sued if you change tire size? What about repainting the truck? Changing axles? Running different tire pressure? These are all things that are posted on the truck but are modified constantly by people. Of all the forums I've been on and seen challenges to produce even one instance of someone being overloaded and being sued I've yet to see one case.

[bakken]

Originally Posted by lynkage

i would have to say that going on a public forum and telling anyone it is ok to go over the ratings of their vehicles is just uncalled for.

That in itself is a dis-service to the members of our forum who are trying to understand and learn how to make a good choice about what they can tow and what they should avoid.

x100

[prof_fate]

Are you sure the specs are by the lawyers? May be engineers, warranty bean counters, marketing and sales depts.

Hyundai got nailed for drastically inflating its MPG rating on cars - it seems the EPA lets the companies test their own stuff. And rarely checks up on it. It took a class action lawsuit to get things righted.

Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) announced the companies had overstated the gas mileage on over a third of their 2011-2013 model-year vehicles, including the Hyundai Elantra, Hyundai Santa Fe and Kia Soul. The EPA forced the companies to lower the vehicles’ MPG ratings on their window stickers by one to six miles per gallon.

Obviously it wasn't the lawyers in charge of what was advertised or put on the window stickers.

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

Quick question: When manufactures are trying to "sue-proof" themselves with these ratings, do you think they are making assumptions that the load will be evenly distributed, solid, and hauled with an experienced driver??? Based upon my experience of seeing all of the idiotic warning labels on things that aren't needed for anyone with even an iota of intelligence, I tend to lean toward thinking those ratings are EXTREMELY conservative.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by f1100turbo

...Just because we tow at or slightly above posted manufactures limits doesn't mean we should persuade someone to do the same because WE do it. Some of you, like me may have 20+ years of towing experience where as brandon327 might not .
So given OUR experience should we tell someone of lesser experience "if that's the case or not" to go ahead with a "highly disputed towing scenario?
Turbs

By the same token, sounding the "Unsafe, you're creating a potential hazard" alarm for being a little over weight is just as disconcerting. Getting down to the 150# over is "Unsafe" level is a little ridiculous. Common sense has to come into play somewhere.

[bakken]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

By the same token, sounding the "Unsafe, you're creating a potential hazard" alarm for being a little over weight is just as disconcerting. Getting down to the 150# over is "Unsafe" level is a little ridiculous. Common sense has to come into play somewhere.

Just out of curiosity, how much overloaded is your 1/2 ton OC?
I believe you have air bags, so it probably rides really well, but how much are you over?

[Sgt. Schultz]

I am not sure about the US definition but in Canada GVWR is clearly defined as a standard with the requirements to meet the standard available from the regulatory body: "The GVWR is a safety standard used to prevent overloading. Manufacturers set the GVWR based on requirements set by Transport Canada."

I wonder...... if we changed truck to canoe or boat in this discussion would anyone argue that you are safe going over the manufactures weight limits -- as long as the gunwale is above the water we are good to go

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by bakken

Just out of curiosity, how much overloaded is your 1/2 ton OC?
I believe you have air bags, so it probably rides really well, but how much are you over?

Have no idea, only had it on the state scales in SC one time and bed of truck was loaded with awning pole material, fruit, etc. They weighted the whole rig, not individual axles, I don't remember, but it was considerably over the GCW. I do know that when I drop the 5er on the truck, it drops 1-1/4" in the rear and 1/2" in the front. Air bags bring it back to normal height in the rear and doesn't change the 1/2" drop in the front. We normally tow with nothing in the bed except 10 Lynx blocks and the tonneau cover cutout section.
BTW, it is a 5.3L with a 3.23 rear end and pulls just fine even in the mountains in NC. Don't go up them at 60mph, but neither do the semi's.