Staying within trucks specs vs. exceeding them - from thread hijack

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by sreddy

I wonder...... if we changed truck to canoe or boat in this discussion would anyone argue that you are safe going over the manufactures weight limits -- as long as the gunwale is above the water we are good to go

Being a fat guy in a little kayak - I can definitely attest that those weight limits matter. You can push them a little, but you much more easily end up in an oxygen-deprived environment. Ask me about my nemesis...

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by ependydad

Being a fat guy in a little kayak - I can definitely attest that those weight limits matter. You can push them a little, but you much more easily end up in an oxygen-deprived environment. Ask me about my nemesis...

Love it, comparing apples to horseflys!

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Love it, comparing apples to horseflys!

It was a joke. I'm sorry you missed it.

[Sgt. Schultz]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Love it, comparing apples to horseflys!

Not so sure.... still talking about the cargo capacity of a people carrying vehicle

[bakken]

ependy, the guys with grossly overloaded TVs are always a bit touchy!

[TTNewbees]

Originally Posted by bakken

ependy, the guys with grossly overloaded TVs are always a bit touchy!

He just gave you the numbers. It's not fair to make accusations from 1700 miles away.

[grayfox]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

And chew on this concerning payload. The only thing limiting payload would be springs, axles, wheels and tires. Brakes aren't even part of the equation. If you don't think that's true, please explain how the brakes are sufficient to stop a trailer that weighs 4000 pounds with no brakes but somehow can only stop 2000ish (3/4 ton) that is loaded into the truck. Axles are clearly rated high enough to get another 1500 to 2000 pounds of payload on most trucks, as are the tires. Wheels should be able to hold at least as much as tires. The only thing that leaves that would limit most 3/4 ton trucks to a 10K GVWR would be the springs. Overloads or air-bags would solve that. Still wanna know where the GVWR number comes from. I think at least part of it, from research, is to meet registration requirements for certain states.

Air bags will not change WT, capacity!!

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by prof_fate

Big problem with this scenario - I can put E rated tires on a base F150 and be 'legal' in alberta even though I can load more than double what Ford says the truck can haul.

Having been a mechanic for 15 years and hobbyist for twice that I can assure you that as the payload rating of the truck goes up more than tires are changed - axles and bearings and housings are much different. Most DRW setups have 'floating axles' so that if you break an axle the wheels don't come off the truck. Springs get heavier and more in number. Frames get bigger in cross section. Brakes get bigger. Calipers, pads and master cylinders get bigger as well.

What you can carry/haul is limited by the 'weakest link' in the chain. You can physically put a 10k trailer on a class 1 hitch....but why would you want to?

My 1500 came with 4 ply P tires. If I put 10 ply E tires on it i've not turned it into a 3500. NO way, NO how.

No one here is advocating exceeding axle weight ratings. You are coming to the discussion a little late and apparently aren't reading everything that's been stated.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by prof_fate

Small but significant point here -

You mention hauling hay/ag often - what, everyday, a few times a week? And where? Most likely at 20-40mph on farm roads. And I bet you're alone in the truck most of that time.

Vs an RVr that tows on the hiway, in a truck with kids/dogs, 5 times a year - if that.

Experience makes a BIG difference in what is 'safe' and what is not. I'd never ride a wheelie at 100mph plus down the road on a sportbike, yet i know many people that do just that. I can back up my TT 10 times better now than when I first got it. I can parallel park anything on the first try on either side of the road - I lived for 10 years on a one way street and did it thousands of times yet some can't parallel park to save their lives.

Is 55mph a 'safe' speed? Is 70? Are these 'limits' or 'recomendations' and where do they come from? I've driven 140+ on 55mp roads without incident yet I'd never suggest anyone do that as a matter of course. Often speed limits are based on things from 50 years ago when cars had manual drum brakes, but then traffic is more dense today and drivers a lot more distracted, but people drive more today so the experience helps, right?
So if you do 70 on a dark and stormy night vs noon on a sunny day are you taking any more risk? Yes, of course you are.

Just the same as if you load above the specs listed in your manual/sticker.

But you can't beleve everything you read or any 'midsize' suv could tow my TT - FR had a sticker inside that said it was possible!

Wow- where to begin attacking this utter lack of logic. I'll give it a try just for fun. First of all: No, they type of ag hauling I speak of occurs most often on highways and at highway speeds. Good luck getting a load of hay cross country using farm roads at 20-40mph. You really shouldn't engage the keyboard in an argument when you obviously have no clue what goes on in ag related towing situations. Secondly, you argue about speed when that is clearly a legality issue. Not to mention the fact that your argument is about almost tripling the speed limit while our discussion has in no way indicated that anyone thinks it's okay to triple a trucks GVWR. We are talking about the safety of exceeding the GVWR at ALL. This does make a good point, however: All the weight police here advocate spending 60K on a new truck as opposed to going, say 2% over the GVWR, yet most of them probably on occasion exceed speed limits by significantly more than that(61 in a 60 would be almost 2%).

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by bakken

Comparing a tow vehicle's GVWR to the breaking strength of a rope is ridiculous.
Vehicle load ratings are determined with hundreds of thousands of miles and millions of load cycles in mind. It has nothing to do with what will "break" the truck.
While overloading one's TV will not break it immediately, the wear and tear and potntial for eventual failure obviously increases. Arguing otherwise is pointless.
As a structural engineer, I have knowledge on my side.

EXACTLY MT POINT!!!!! Giving a truck an EXACT weight and saying "That right there is where it goes from completely safe to completely dangerous" like a shear load is RIDICULOUS!!! Yet that's what is being done. And since you are an engineer, please explain how the wear and tear on a vehicle would work. Using your same line of logic, if I wear out a part on my truck at a 2% increased rate because of of being loaded 2% over my GVWR(elementary figures, I know), how am I unsafe???? By your own testimony the same wear and tear will occur, yet slower. So if that wear happens a little quicker, I'm somehow a menace to society???? Not seeing how having to replace a bearing at 60K versus 62K creates an inherently dangerous situation????

[dustman_stx]

For the record, my truck is NOT overloaded when I tow my camper.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

EXACTLY MT POINT!!!!! Giving a truck an EXACT weight and saying "That right there is where it goes from completely safe to completely dangerous" like a shear load is RIDICULOUS!!! Yet that's what is being done. And since you are an engineer, please explain how the wear and tear on a vehicle would work. Using your same line of logic, if I wear out a part on my truck at a 2% increased rate because of of being loaded 2% over my GVWR(elementary figures, I know), how am I unsafe???? By your own testimony the same wear and tear will occur, yet slower. So if that wear happens a little quicker, I'm somehow a menace to society???? Not seeing how having to replace a bearing at 60K versus 62K creates an inherently dangerous situation????

dustman stx, arguing with "self appointed experts" with absolutely no formal training/experience in the field is like pouring sand into a bottomless pit. There is no end to it.
I'm out of here.

[Cajun Po-Boy]

Time to bring some humor in this discussion...this pic reminded me of this thread! LOL
Keep up the healthy discussion/debate

[Len & Cheri]

Originally Posted by grayfox

Air bags will not change WT, capacity!!

But I can change the springs and blocks on my F250 to springs and blocks from an F350 and I should be all good right? That's the only difference between and F250 and an F350 SRW.

[bakken]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

dustman stx, arguing with "self appointed experts" with absolutely no formal training/experience in the field is like pouring sand into a bottomless pit. There is no end to it.
I'm out of here.

When the discussion degenerates into personal insults, it is time to shut it down.

[Brandon327]

Originally Posted by Len & Cheri

But I can change the springs and blocks on my F250 to springs and blocks from an F350 and I should be all good right? That's the only difference between and F250 and an F350 SRW.

But if you do that you are essentially doing the same thing as air bags just in another way. You are taking some of the load off the springs.

[Len & Cheri]

Originally Posted by Brandon327

But if you do that you are essentially doing the same thing as air bags just in another way. You are taking some of the load off the springs.

So my point is why is a F250 with airbags or F350 springs installed less safe than an F350 while towing. Because of a sticker on the door I'd just like to hear why that is.

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by bakken

Comparing a tow vehicle's GVWR to the breaking strength of a rope is ridiculous.
Vehicle load ratings are determined with hundreds of thousands of miles and millions of load cycles in mind. It has nothing to do with what will "break" the truck.
While overloading one's TV will not break it immediately, the wear and tear and potntial for eventual failure obviously increases. Arguing otherwise is pointless.
As a structural engineer, I have knowledge on my side.

You are correct here.

Comparing to a rope is invalid because the rope has a continuous rated breaking point for its entire length. That load rating is based on the maximum load at which the rope is guaranteed not to break. Not WILL break; but COULD break.

When talking about your truck's ratings, it is better to use a chain as your comparison. Picture a chain made of links created by many different manufacturers and many different materials.

Each LINK is rated (guaranteed by the manufacturer) to handle a maximum load before breaking. NONE of the links have the same rating because they are made with different materials. Some strong, some weak.

Now build a chain with those links. As the chain builder, do you rate your chain at the value of the weakest link or the strongest or an average of all the links?

The GVWR is based on the weakest piece of support structure in the truck. Usually, this is the frame.

This is why if you add up the maximum axle ratings it typically exceeds the GVWR. The axles can carry more than the frame can.

[Herk7769]

One more thing. Please keep it civil.

This is a hotly debated topic and finger pointing and name calling won't advance your point of view.

Safety is a goal we all strive for; yet we never know when we have achieved it.
While "Safety is no accident"; the converse is not always true. "No accident" does not mean safe. It could just mean lucky.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by Brandon327

But if you do that you are essentially doing the same thing as air bags just in another way. You are taking some of the load off the springs.

You are correct, for carrying a load, it makes no difference to the rear end, tires and wheels how the load is carried. Could be a solid post between the rear end and the bed of the truck. Air bags may not be as dependable, but they still transfer the load to the rear end. Kinda like arguing about which wheel chock works best. As long as the wheels are locked, what makes the difference how they are locked whether by brand x, y, z or homemade.

BTW, Herk is correct again!