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Old 04-25-2013, 11:27 AM   #61
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Better get some more popping.......or whatever your preferred snack of choice is......

So question for everyone. As we make comparisons of ag and farm vehicles hauling hay, grain, implements, etc. and being overweight as compared to hauling a fifth wheel for recreational purposes, is this an apples to apples comparison? Is speed a factor that needs to be taken into consideration in relation to weight, braking, safety to the driver and passengers as well as to everyone else on the road with them? During planting/harvest I dont remember to many of these vehicles passing me at 55 mph or faster fully loaded (and yes i do agree that they haul what we would consider overweight all the time). But the DW does say I have a short term memory
There a worlds of ag use towing situations that involve long miles and high speeds. If you look closely at some of my previous examples they include hauling hay, equipment, and cattle. For example: The last several years there has been an extreme drought in many Southern states. There were literally thousands upon thousands of loads of hay hauled down from Northern states. Many of these were done with 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. There was absolutely NO WAY that these loads were all within spec. And they weren't making 2000 mile round trips at 50mph, either. As someone mentioned earlier, many of these trucks probably were "maxed out" according to payload specs as soon as a 30' dovetail was attached. And this was before loading 15-20K of round bales on the trailer. Same thing when hauling cattle. Many people travel hundreds of miles each way to haul cattle to certain sales where the prices are higher- or sometimes out of necessity. A few cows moving forward a few feet will DRASTICALLY alter the pin weight of the load. I'm simply using these scenarios to point out that there are MANY scenarios where people haul safely and without incident when there is ABSOLUTELY no way they could be as anal and specific about weights as many RVers try to be even if they wanted to.

Quick question: When manufactures are trying to "sue-proof" themselves with these ratings, do you think they are making assumptions that the load will be evenly distributed, solid, and hauled with an experienced driver??? Based upon my experience of seeing all of the idiotic warning labels on things that aren't needed for anyone with even an iota of intelligence, I tend to lean toward thinking those ratings are EXTREMELY conservative.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:29 AM   #62
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I'm sure you somehow think your point is valid as result of your logic...
You were referring to passenger aircraft and about not boarding one, nothing about military aircraft, I simply ask how you would know the passenger aircraft was overloaded. Have fun & enjoy camping.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:33 AM   #63
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Its all good, OldCoot. Happy camping back to ya...
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:38 AM   #64
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The most important thing that I want to convey is something I said in an earlier post - I don't care if someone else overloads their truck as long as they do it knowingly. Know how to calculate your payload. Know how to determine if you're overloaded or not. If you are going to tow overloaded, do it knowingly and within your own justification. It's just not for me.




I answered this in an earlier post - they are ratings. The owner's manual describes them as such. I'd still like to see your official documentation where they're described as recommendations.
Fine, they are ratings and not "recommendations". I still contend that there is NO WAY that a manufacturer can put a sticker on the door of a truck and claim that this is THE point at which you become unsafe with so many variables that aren't accounted for. It's not like a load rating on rope or cable where you know with a level of certainty at what point it will break. I also still contend that it takes a LOT more weight to "break" a truck than the GVWR. Therefore, the GVWR can only be determined by making assumptions about those variables- and I say they are probably worst case scenario assumptions. Why is it that our trailers GVWR is EXACTLY the weight rating of the axles plus tongue weight, yet a trucks doesn't reflect the axle ratings????
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:42 AM   #65
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Why is it that our trailers GVWR is EXACTLY the weight rating of the axles plus tongue weight, yet a trucks doesn't reflect the axle ratings????
My *guess* is that they reflect the weakest link somewhere with some level of padding. No clue, though.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:44 AM   #66
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How did we get to talking about aircraft? Obviously a completely different animal. I'm not getting on a plane unless I'm dragged onto it no matter how it is loaded.
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:40 PM   #67
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I'll post my same comment here as the split thread.


I can surely sum this whole thread up..


Just because we tow at or slightly above posted manufactures limits doesn't mean we should persuade someone to do the same because WE do it.

Some of you, like me may have 20+ years of towing experience where as brandon327 might not .
So given OUR experience should we tell someone of lesser experience "if that's the case or not" to go ahead with a "highly disputed towing scenario?


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Old 04-25-2013, 12:58 PM   #68
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Big problem with this scenario - I can put E rated tires on a base F150 and be 'legal' in alberta even though I can load more than double what Ford says the truck can haul.

Having been a mechanic for 15 years and hobbyist for twice that I can assure you that as the payload rating of the truck goes up more than tires are changed - axles and bearings and housings are much different. Most DRW setups have 'floating axles' so that if you break an axle the wheels don't come off the truck. Springs get heavier and more in number. Frames get bigger in cross section. Brakes get bigger. Calipers, pads and master cylinders get bigger as well.

What you can carry/haul is limited by the 'weakest link' in the chain. You can physically put a 10k trailer on a class 1 hitch....but why would you want to?

My 1500 came with 4 ply P tires. If I put 10 ply E tires on it i've not turned it into a 3500. NO way, NO how.

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When researching this prior to buying our trailer, this was one of my main concerns. Went out to the local highway scales and asked the ones that enforce it here in Alberta.

The LEO stated that "as a general practice, we don't look at the sticker on the door. We look at what the tires are rated for, multiple by 2 (for SRW) and then subract truck weight at rear axle. This gives us pin allowance"

When I bought the trailer, I took what the trailer label stated the hitch weight was and calculated that I was indeed under the LEO's definition. I'm under the label on the door of the truck too, but there is definitely a difference between the two.

Again, this is what was told to me as it applies to Alberta. The LEO also said that this method would be applicable to BC as well (but I'm not sure about SK or the US)

I still want room using either calculation as I don't want to overload the truck. I would say that if you're anywhere close on the limits of door label / tires, look into something bigger truck wise....

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Old 04-25-2013, 01:09 PM   #69
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Small but significant point here -

You mention hauling hay/ag often - what, everyday, a few times a week? And where? Most likely at 20-40mph on farm roads. And I bet you're alone in the truck most of that time.

Vs an RVr that tows on the hiway, in a truck with kids/dogs, 5 times a year - if that.

Experience makes a BIG difference in what is 'safe' and what is not. I'd never ride a wheelie at 100mph plus down the road on a sportbike, yet i know many people that do just that. I can back up my TT 10 times better now than when I first got it. I can parallel park anything on the first try on either side of the road - I lived for 10 years on a one way street and did it thousands of times yet some can't parallel park to save their lives.

Is 55mph a 'safe' speed? Is 70? Are these 'limits' or 'recomendations' and where do they come from? I've driven 140+ on 55mp roads without incident yet I'd never suggest anyone do that as a matter of course. Often speed limits are based on things from 50 years ago when cars had manual drum brakes, but then traffic is more dense today and drivers a lot more distracted, but people drive more today so the experience helps, right?
So if you do 70 on a dark and stormy night vs noon on a sunny day are you taking any more risk? Yes, of course you are.

Just the same as if you load above the specs listed in your manual/sticker.

But you can't beleve everything you read or any 'midsize' suv could tow my TT - FR had a sticker inside that said it was possible!

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Let's go ahead and make it a good show for those that are watching!!!!

I love hypothetical situations, so I'll attempt to show how following the "ratings" can actually be less safe.

Let's assume you have a max tow rating of 16,000 and a max payload of 2,000. For those familiar with 3/4 ratings, this wouldn't be hard to find. It would be very easy, especially when hauling equipment and such on a dovetail for example, to stay within this spec. But you are only at 12.5% pin weight with that combo- most would undoubtedly say this is not safe- but, hey it's within spec for the truck. Keep in mind that there is no legal requirement to stay at 20-25% pin weight, but, obviously logic prevails that this would not be a safe load.

I'll also take this time to point out that everyone here is obviously NOT involved in the ag industry. You'd spend 95% of your time on scales if you were dogmatic and anal about your weights. How would you pick up a load of round bales? Probably wouldn't be any scales handy and the weight of them can vary tremendously based upon moisture content and variations in size. When loading a tractor can you guarantee you will get it in exactly the same position each time and therefore be able to duplicate pin weight exactly every time? What if you haul random combinations of equipment? What about when hauling cattle and they can move shifting the pin weight by hundreds of pounds either way. Yet thousands of people haul like this everyday. Granted, an RV is more predictable. I'm simply trying to point out that the specs are RECOMMENDATIONS. You will not and do not become unsafe the moment you exceed one of them. If you want to be anal about staying within spec, go ahead. But acting as though someone is making a deadly decision and should be chastised accordingly because they exceed payload capacity is elementary at best. If I had my "druthers" I'd take an experienced driver at 20% over versus a newbie at 20% under any day of the week.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:11 PM   #70
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Fine, they are ratings and not "recommendations". I still contend that there is NO WAY that a manufacturer can put a sticker on the door of a truck and claim that this is THE point at which you become unsafe with so many variables that aren't accounted for. It's not like a load rating on rope or cable where you know with a level of certainty at what point it will break. I also still contend that it takes a LOT more weight to "break" a truck than the GVWR. Therefore, the GVWR can only be determined by making assumptions about those variables- and I say they are probably worst case scenario assumptions. Why is it that our trailers GVWR is EXACTLY the weight rating of the axles plus tongue weight, yet a trucks doesn't reflect the axle ratings????
Comparing a tow vehicle's GVWR to the breaking strength of a rope is ridiculous.
Vehicle load ratings are determined with hundreds of thousands of miles and millions of load cycles in mind. It has nothing to do with what will "break" the truck.
While overloading one's TV will not break it immediately, the wear and tear and potntial for eventual failure obviously increases. Arguing otherwise is pointless.
As a structural engineer, I have knowledge on my side.
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