Staying within trucks specs vs. exceeding them - from thread hijack

[Brandon327]

Who is a pulling a 36qbok with a3/4 ton truck? i currently have a 09 gmc 2500 hd cc short bed 4x4 with duramax Allison combo. I want to gets a new 36qbok but I am thinking my truck will be maxed out on payload. I don't want to get a new truck because the one I have is almost paid for and only 40k miles on it.

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ependydad edit:

I've moved this portion of the discussion/debate into it's own thread in order to isolate the discussion of staying with specs vs. knowingly exceeding them. I've *copied* some posts from the original thread (seen here).

I apologize in advance if my edits appear to be biased in anyway. That was NOT my intention.

[Cajun Po-Boy]

Engine & Tranny are capable, unfortunately the truck's weight limitations are not enough for that camper.

[Lynkage]

The 36QBOK is basically the same trailer as my 355BHQ. It was too much for my 1 ton SRW. My payload was gone before I even put my family in the truck.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by bob34787

from what I see with a hitch weight of 1825 plus the hitch you are not going to be happy. I am sure you can pull it but I do not think you have enough truck.

The hitch weight on mine weighed in at 2,300 pounds wet and that was *without* any propane (sigh- apparently (sheepish grin)) and that was the first trip of this season before we were able to accumulate crap as the year goes on. It was with minimal water in the gray and black tanks since I was winterized (I don't always dump between trips if I'm going again soon). And, my air compressor wasn't in the basement storage like it usually is (it was further back in the doorway). No firewood or anything.

All told- I surely believe that my pin weight number is going to so nothing but go up.

Brandon- take your family, some stuff representative of your traveling goodies, hitch and go get your truck weighed. It'll tell you what your actual payload is. As you probably read in my weighing thread, my advertised vs. actual payload was a good 1,200 pound difference when we were ready to go.

Also, look for member bjlowe, he's pulling a 36qbok with less truck than I have (man- that sounds insulting but surely isn't meant to). I just don't know if it's a 3/4-ton truck or 1-ton Megacab.

[dustman_stx]

This whole payload thing has been debated to death. I have researched this to no end. The only FACTUAL information I can come up with is that legally you cannot exceed the load rating for the tires. According to what I've read from actual LEO's, the sticker on the door is nothing more than a recommendation(Do you get arrested or go to jail or worry about having your rear sued if you change tire size or wheel size or tire pressures-get the picture?). There are literally thousands upon thousands of trucks being used in agriculture applications (and RVing) that routinely have a significant load over what the sticker says. There is no way that a company can post a sticker on the door and that is THE safe limit of what you can haul without knowing what you are hauling, where you are hauling, the climate you are hauling in, your driving experience, the type of load, and probably lots of other things I can't think of right now. The weight police will cry foul if you exceed the RECOMMENDATIONS by an ounce. And they'll give you all kinds of scary scenarios of why not to. I wouldn't recommend seriously overloading your truck to the point of something breaking(which would be a SIGNIFICANT amount over capacity), but a truck with a GVWR of 10,000 will not know the difference if you load it to 11,000. JMHO that I have developed after YEARS of real world experience in towing/hauling and seeing others tow/haul. The weight police can now begin arguing my points.

Just another thought- My in-laws have a Honda minivan with almost the same payload capacity as my parents 1/2 ton Ford pickup- if this doesn't clearly demonstrate the fact that payload capacities are a LONG way from being an amount that will actually break a truck or make it unsafe, I don't know what will.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

The weight police will cry foul if you exceed the RECOMMENDATIONS by an ounce.

Per the 2012 Ram 3500 Owners manual, they are ratings and specifically state they are not to be exceeded. For me, my truck and my towing - I will not exceed them - regardless of your "YEARS of real world experience in towing/hauling and seeing others tow/haul".

My goal is not to tell someone what to do, but to educate them on how to determine if their RV is going to be within the specs and ratings (again, not "recommendations") of their particular tow vehicle. Then, once educated, if they choose to overload - far be it from me to tell them no. I'll just try to avoid being near them and/or you on the highway if I see a scenario that appears to be grossly overloaded.

I will not debate this, either- except for where you can find official documentation from the truck/vehicle manufacturers that they're "recommendations". If you have written proof of than, I'm all "ears".

Sorry popcorn lovers.

[QCCowboy]

I will take some of that popcorn! I am just sharing my opinion and ultimately the decision comes back to the responsibility of the OP who is looking for input. My decision came primarily from one factor. I travel with my DW, 2 kids and a dog, their safety is my number one priority and I have removed an element of risk by towing my 36QBOK with a 350 DRW.

Anyone got butter and some white cheddar seasoning?

[jcrayford]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

This whole payload thing has been debated to death. I have researched this to no end. The only FACTUAL information I can come up with is that legally you cannot exceed the load rating for the tires. According to what I've read from actual LEO's, the sticker on the door is nothing more than a recommendation(Do you get arrested or go to jail or worry about having your rear sued if you change tire size or wheel size or tire pressures-get the picture?). There are literally thousands upon thousands of trucks being used in agriculture applications (and RVing) that routinely have a significant load over what the sticker says. There is no way that a company can post a sticker on the door and that is THE safe limit of what you can haul without knowing what you are hauling, where you are hauling, the climate you are hauling in, your driving experience, the type of load, and probably lots of other things I can't think of right now. The weight police will cry foul if you exceed the RECOMMENDATIONS by an ounce. And they'll give you all kinds of scary scenarios of why not to. I wouldn't recommend seriously overloading your truck to the point of something breaking(which would be a SIGNIFICANT amount over capacity), but a truck with a GVWR of 10,000 will not know the difference if you load it to 11,000. JMHO that I have developed after YEARS of real world experience in towing/hauling and seeing others tow/haul. The weight police can now begin arguing my points.

Just another thought- My in-laws have a Honda minivan with almost the same payload capacity as my parents 1/2 ton Ford pickup- if this doesn't clearly demonstrate the fact that payload capacities are a LONG way from being an amount that will actually break a truck or make it unsafe, I don't know what will.

When researching this prior to buying our trailer, this was one of my main concerns. Went out to the local highway scales and asked the ones that enforce it here in Alberta.

The LEO stated that "as a general practice, we don't look at the sticker on the door. We look at what the tires are rated for, multiple by 2 (for SRW) and then subract truck weight at rear axle. This gives us pin allowance"

When I bought the trailer, I took what the trailer label stated the hitch weight was and calculated that I was indeed under the LEO's definition. I'm under the label on the door of the truck too, but there is definitely a difference between the two.

Again, this is what was told to me as it applies to Alberta. The LEO also said that this method would be applicable to BC as well (but I'm not sure about SK or the US)

I still want room using either calculation as I don't want to overload the truck. I would say that if you're anywhere close on the limits of door label / tires, look into something bigger truck wise....

J.

[jtstromsburg]

This does bring up an interesting thought in my mind. Think there could be some good, calm discussion on it. The big fifths with dual rear slides, ok, 2nd bath, etc. have more weight behind the axle than some, which can cause the pw to be lighter than one would expect. I had looked at two other fivers just days Before putting money down on our tbok. The heritage glen 346 & 356(i think). The bigger of the two had a much lighter pin weight due to the large rear bunkhouse and full 2nd bath at the rear of the unit. Based on its numbers, id be better off with the 356, even though its heavier and longer.
Thoughts? -- not trying to stir up a hornets nest, but interesting at least to me.
One thing I'll note. I do believe that folks with years and years of towing experience can trump those of us that only in the last couple years have towed much weight. I've towed construction trailers all over the US, and many were double the vehicles ratings. Not safe, yet i never had any troubles.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by jtstromsburg

This does bring up an interesting thought in my mind. Think there could be some good, calm discussion on it. The big fifths with dual rear slides, ok, 2nd bath, etc. have more weight behind the axle than some, which can cause the pw to be lighter than one would expect. I had looked at two other fivers just days Before putting money down on our tbok. The heritage glen 346 & 356(i think). The bigger of the two had a much lighter pin weight due to the large rear bunkhouse and full 2nd bath at the rear of the unit. Based on its numbers, id be better off with the 356, even though its heavier and longer.
Thoughts? -- not trying to stir up a hornets nest, but interesting at least to me.

This is true. Due to my 36QBOK's configuration, my pin weight is only 16.5% of my camper's total weight. This was significantly less than the 20-25% "norm" that is mentioned when planning for weight calculations.

[QCCowboy]

Not to stir the pot here (or maybe to stir the pot), but is weight the only concern? What kinds of terrain will you be towing? How far will you tow? How often will you tow?

These are all things that you need to take into consideration as well.

[dustman_stx]

Let's go ahead and make it a good show for those that are watching!!!!

I love hypothetical situations, so I'll attempt to show how following the "ratings" can actually be less safe.

Let's assume you have a max tow rating of 16,000 and a max payload of 2,000. For those familiar with 3/4 ratings, this wouldn't be hard to find. It would be very easy, especially when hauling equipment and such on a dovetail for example, to stay within this spec. But you are only at 12.5% pin weight with that combo- most would undoubtedly say this is not safe- but, hey it's within spec for the truck. Keep in mind that there is no legal requirement to stay at 20-25% pin weight, but, obviously logic prevails that this would not be a safe load.

I'll also take this time to point out that everyone here is obviously NOT involved in the ag industry. You'd spend 95% of your time on scales if you were dogmatic and anal about your weights. How would you pick up a load of round bales? Probably wouldn't be any scales handy and the weight of them can vary tremendously based upon moisture content and variations in size. When loading a tractor can you guarantee you will get it in exactly the same position each time and therefore be able to duplicate pin weight exactly every time? What if you haul random combinations of equipment? What about when hauling cattle and they can move shifting the pin weight by hundreds of pounds either way. Yet thousands of people haul like this everyday. Granted, an RV is more predictable. I'm simply trying to point out that the specs are RECOMMENDATIONS. You will not and do not become unsafe the moment you exceed one of them. If you want to be anal about staying within spec, go ahead. But acting as though someone is making a deadly decision and should be chastised accordingly because they exceed payload capacity is elementary at best. If I had my "druthers" I'd take an experienced driver at 20% over versus a newbie at 20% under any day of the week.

[dustman_stx]

I'll also add that I think it is much more "wrong" to advise someone with no or little towing experience that they are somehow safe as long as they stay within spec than it is for an experienced person to exceed recommended capacities. As I and others have stated, there are MANY other things to consider besides just weight.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

Let's go ahead and make it a good show for those that are watching!!!!

I'm simply trying to point out that the specs are RECOMMENDATIONS.

Sigh, I usually pride myself on staying away from this kind of argument. Neither of us are going to change the other's mind.

But, riddle me this - where have you found that the manufacturer's publish that these are RECOMMENDATIONS since you're determined that's what they are?

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

I'll also add that I think it is much more "wrong" to advise someone with no or little towing experience that they are somehow safe as long as they stay within spec than it is for an experienced person to exceed recommended capacities. As I and others have stated, there are MANY other things to consider besides just weight.

Given that same newbie - couldn't we make the same argument that they're safeR staying within spec than sending them out in an overloaded situation?

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by ependydad

Sigh, I usually pride myself on staying away from this kind of argument. Neither of us are going to change the other's mind.

But, riddle me this - where have you found that the manufacturer's publish that these are RECOMMENDATIONS since you're determined that's what they are?

What would you say they are?

[ependydad]

Finally, like I said - I usually pride myself on avoiding dogmatic arguments. This is my last post to this thread.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by ependydad

Given that same newbie - couldn't we make the same argument that they're safeR staying within spec than sending them out in an overloaded situation?

No. They might not be safe at all with any load. There are worlds of people that shouldn't be driving at all, much less towing. And since there is no way of knowing a person's experience level, type of terrain where they'll be towing, type of load, whether or not pin weight is correct, if load is distributed evenly, or a myriad of other variables, I'm having a hard time understanding how you can be so dogmatic about the published numbers being THE point where you transition from safe to unsafe.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by ependydad

Finally, like I said - I usually pride myself on avoiding dogmatic arguments. This is my last post to this thread.

O come on ependydad, at least have a little fun with it. I'd at least like to hear what advice you'd give to someone in the ag industry that is constantly hauling various types of loads per my hypothetical. Maybe get a Peterbuilt to pull a lowboy just to be sure.

[Scratch]

Been there & done that, unfortunately... Cost us some bucks deciding to upgrade to an F350/3500 or go with a lighter 5er.

It was a tough decision as the 36' Cougar had the exact floor plan we wanted. With a new truck bed cover, bed liner, 5er hitch, DW, big puppy, airbags, firewood and camping gear, however; we were already near payload, and the loaded trailer's hitch weight put us well over all specs. Took a quick trip to the Texas coast and I knew that although I had plenty of hp and torque, that big rig was obviously made for a one-ton truck.

When we returned home, I gave serious thought to proceeding with what we had because even though the towing comfort wasn't what I wanted, I noticed on several forums that lots of folks tow over their TV's manufacturer's ratings and read the reasons why they do so.

DW then planned a trip with our two young granddaughters and my decision was much clearer and easier... We sucked it up and traded a nearly-new Cougar for the PT Crusader and gave up 5' of length and 2,000 lbs. in the process. There was a moderate, but reasonable increase in price, but the Crusader is the perfect match for my TV. We can all pile in, it drives great, and I sleep well at night. We learned the hard way, but benefitted in that we are happy to be back in the Forest River family, the Crusader is better constructed, and Prime Time has incredible customer service.

Next unit, easily five years out following this experience, will be a larger Prime Time 5er, then an F350 or F450 to match the towing requirements per manufacturer specs...