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Old 01-25-2015, 12:48 PM   #1
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Supercharging a gasser for towing?

Hello friends,
First of all, I want to state that I'm quite pleased with my TV, but know that more power is always nice.
I'm looking forward to how the new custom tune I got this winter from Black Bear Performance will work with my 5er in tow. I'm expecting about a 10% improvement in HP and torque, which will be noticeable.

I'm also considering a Magnacharger supercharger for my TV which will yield about 455HP and 490 lb-ft of torque from my stock LQ4 6.0L.
This is a pricey mod, but it's interesting to me for the resulting improved performance, as well as having something quite unique. Magnacharger has a bolt on kit for my engine that is highly regarded and dependable.

ref pic:


Forced induction is a proven technology for gas powered trucks. We all have to agree that the Ford Ecoboost setup is proof of this.

I'm wondering if any of you motorheads out there have any wisdom to share regarding forced induction (supercharging) for a gas engine, specifically for towing.

I'm not interested in hearing anyone preaching about Diesels - I get it. Not interested.

Thanks in advance for sharing.
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Old 01-25-2015, 01:08 PM   #2
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Do you only use this truck for towing? How many miles are on it? I would be a little concerned about some of your lower level components ( bearings, etc... ) giving out on a higher mileage vehicle with the added performance.

Have you considered a higher rear ratio if it is only a tow vehicle? Much less expensive.

Good luck,
Don
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Old 01-25-2015, 01:10 PM   #3
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The only drawback I could think of is the heat produced by the supercharger. Might have to look into a bigger radiator and oil cooler. Trans coolers as well. Heat will kill an engine and components quick.
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Old 01-25-2015, 01:13 PM   #4
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My concern is with additional increased torque/horsepower and multiplying the resulting cause and effect into the equation. What upgrades/modifications will you do to stop this raw power your seeking. My Tundra has 4-wheel disk brakes (no mods cuz it will pull the space shuttle, lol) some trucks have rear drum, some gearheads I know have increased the rotor size and calipers to a six piston system.
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Old 01-25-2015, 01:41 PM   #5
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Unfortunately, a diesel really is your only true option for proper towing, safety and appeasing the haters.

Ok, jokes aside, nothing wrong at all with what you're looking at doing. As you said, the Ecoboost is doing fine. It's secret is that it's a complete package which is why so many modification attempts fail. Folks will strap on the blower and change nothing else trashing their engine, transmission and rear diff.

I haven't looked into your specific kit, but here's the things I'd look for.

Does it come with an ECM recalibration to address ignition and fuel curves, detonation avoidance. Also, it needs to address the transmission pressures and curves to protect it. I'd swap the trans fluid to a synthetic of the OE spec, along with a fresh synthetic diff fluid change. Somewhere around 2005 or 2006 GM switched to a synthetic diff fluid, so you may be fine there except now would be a good time to service it. Also, if you haven't already I'd swap to a synthetic engine oil.

In general the cooling system should be up to snuff, I'd add a heavy duty fan clutch, and make sure that it has an auxiliary trans cooler and if not add a fairly large, efficient one. If you've not changed the thermostat (And if the kit doesn't come with one, often they do.) then I'd change that and the coolant at the same time.

Do these things and you should have a long, happy towing life with it. Best part is, when done as a system you'll see more than power benefits, you should see some fuel economy improvements at a cruise.
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Old 01-25-2015, 01:43 PM   #6
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IMO... adding a supercharger to a stock engine may be asking for trouble...

The following is a C & P from a performance mag.

3-5 psi boost level: This range of boost has proven to be the best compromise for power and reliability for engines using cast pistons, cast crank, and small cam.

Engine rpm: When using stock cast pistons, the engine should be limited to a maximum of 4,500-5,000 rpm. Exceeding this limit may over-stress the cast pistons causing failure. Blueprinting an engine using the proper components will allow higher rpm reliability and will maximize a supercharged engine’s potential.

Detonation (pinging): Detonation is the single most destructive force in a supercharged engine and steps must be taken to eliminate it. This may include lowering boost level, retarding timing, installing a boost timing master, increasing fuel flow to prevent leanout, and/or using a fuel additive to raise octane level. The cooling system also needs to be in good condition to prevent overheating, which may lead to detonation.
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Old 01-25-2015, 01:57 PM   #7
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I hope you have good success with your setup! Forced induction is great for producing torque at lower RPM ranges.

I would exercise some caution as your cooling system, engine internals, transmission, etc . aren't designed for the extra heat/stress, etc.

My guess is that you will be fine with moderate boost and reasonable RPM.

Good luck! Post some results over time. I'm interested in your outcome.
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Old 01-25-2015, 02:13 PM   #8
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There are so many blogs/websites about hopping up the LS series engines from GM. LS1tech is one of my favorites. If I had an extra 5k laying around i'd slap a SC on my 6.0 in a heartbeat, 03 w/90k mi. without worries. These engines so far outpace their gen1 and gen2 counterparts it is amazing. You tube LS engine anything, they are literally everywhere in everything making tons of power and torque reliably, with proper restraint and maintenance they will survive. The SC manufacturers have engineered engine longevity into their product, a heavy right foot takes it out. Look into the build specs of the 6.0, six bolt mains, strong cranks, tough blocks, excellent head design.

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Old 01-25-2015, 02:56 PM   #9
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I have supercharged 3 boats and one of my trucks. The boat engines were all built from the ground up with supercharging in mind. The top engine was a 540ci with over 1175hp. The truck was a '95 using the stock 350 and added a whipple twin screw supercharger. Added about 150hp but also added ceramic headers, big TBI, and MSD ignition. The truck ran flawlessly, but I never really pulled with it. Exhaust heat would be your biggest enemy. Staying in boost for too long will take a toll on the heads first. Without inconel valves you can turn a flat valve into a "martini glass", been there, done that.


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Old 01-25-2015, 03:07 PM   #10
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Sounds like a bandaid solution to a bigger problem.
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Old 01-25-2015, 03:50 PM   #11
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We were considering adding the supercharger at one time also- yes it add power but would not increase my payload or tow capacity so we stayed away from it.

There is another member here running the TRD supercharger on his tundra pulling a 5wh and he loves it!
Granted a supercharger from the manufacture is usually r&d a bill zillion miles more than aftermarket but I'm sure you are looking at other forums at people that are already doing what you are considering.

I do agree with adding a big brake package with it.


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Old 01-25-2015, 04:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HONDAMAN174 View Post

I do agree with adding a big brake package with it.


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Not sure I understand why bigger brakes would be needed. I can get my truck and trailer combination going way faster than I should be with my stock engine. With the TRD supercharger I could get there faster I suppose.
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Old 01-25-2015, 04:10 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by M&K Hoffman View Post
Not sure I understand why bigger brakes would be needed. I can get my truck and trailer combination going way faster than I should be with my stock engine. With the TRD supercharger I could get there faster I suppose.
I agree. I think some folks must assume you'll need to ride the brakes (not breaks) to keep such a rig from climbing a rope and launching into outer space. Adding a SC doesn't mean you're going to drive faster... doesn't add much overall weight... doesn't need additional help stopping, but the other add-ons such as cooling enhancements would be a good idea.
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Old 01-25-2015, 05:40 PM   #14
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Great feedback gents.
Much appreciated

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmdrj5 View Post
Do you only use this truck for towing? How many miles are on it? I would be a little concerned about some of your lower level components ( bearings, etc... ) giving out on a higher mileage vehicle with the added performance.

Have you considered a higher rear ratio if it is only a tow vehicle? Much less expensive.

Good luck,
Don
Thanks Don.
My Chevy is a high mile truck, but I've been told this is not a factor unless I wanted to really push it, like drag racing - NOT. I use it mostly for towing, but want normal driveability too.
I've already got the 4:10s and like the resulting rpms when towing at highway speeds. 2,000 rpms at 65mph all locked up in 4th gear is perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4mula1fan View Post
The only drawback I could think of is the heat produced by the supercharger. Might have to look into a bigger radiator and oil cooler. Trans coolers as well. Heat will kill an engine and components quick.
My HD does have all of the coolers, plus the Magnacharger TVS1900 comes with a very nice self-contained intercooler. I agree, watching the heat would be important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donanddona View Post
My concern is with additional increased torque/horsepower and multiplying the resulting cause and effect into the equation. What upgrades/modifications will you do to stop this raw power your seeking. My Tundra has 4-wheel disk brakes (no mods cuz it will pull the space shuttle, lol) some trucks have rear drum, some gearheads I know have increased the rotor size and calipers to a six piston system.
I have good 4 wheel disk brakes already and have no problems stopping my rig. I'm not planning to do any street racing with a 6,000# truck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKnight View Post
Unfortunately, a diesel really is your only true option for proper towing, safety and appeasing the haters.

Ok, jokes aside, nothing wrong at all with what you're looking at doing. As you said, the Ecoboost is doing fine. It's secret is that it's a complete package which is why so many modification attempts fail. Folks will strap on the blower and change nothing else trashing their engine, transmission and rear diff.

I haven't looked into your specific kit, but here's the things I'd look for.

Does it come with an ECM recalibration to address ignition and fuel curves, detonation avoidance. Also, it needs to address the transmission pressures and curves to protect it. I'd swap the trans fluid to a synthetic of the OE spec, along with a fresh synthetic diff fluid change. Somewhere around 2005 or 2006 GM switched to a synthetic diff fluid, so you may be fine there except now would be a good time to service it. Also, if you haven't already I'd swap to a synthetic engine oil.

In general the cooling system should be up to snuff, I'd add a heavy duty fan clutch, and make sure that it has an auxiliary trans cooler and if not add a fairly large, efficient one. If you've not changed the thermostat (And if the kit doesn't come with one, often they do.) then I'd change that and the coolant at the same time.

Do these things and you should have a long, happy towing life with it. Best part is, when done as a system you'll see more than power benefits, you should see some fuel economy improvements at a cruise.
Good stuff, thanks.
These are my concerns as well.
The kit does come with an ECM programmer, but Black Bear will also reflash my ECM for free for life if I do any other mods. I'm considering a very respected local engine performance shop (Baker Engineering) to do the install. They would do a complete dyno tune to dial it in. This would include the trans tune.
I'm already running synth fluids everywhere which have all been changed recently, so I'm good there. And I'm a bit anal about running fresh DexCool.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyDually View Post
IMO... adding a supercharger to a stock engine may be asking for trouble...

The following is a C & P from a performance mag.

3-5 psi boost level: This range of boost has proven to be the best compromise for power and reliability for engines using cast pistons, cast crank, and small cam.

Engine rpm: When using stock cast pistons, the engine should be limited to a maximum of 4,500-5,000 rpm. Exceeding this limit may over-stress the cast pistons causing failure. Blueprinting an engine using the proper components will allow higher rpm reliability and will maximize a supercharged engine’s potential.

Detonation (pinging): Detonation is the single most destructive force in a supercharged engine and steps must be taken to eliminate it. This may include lowering boost level, retarding timing, installing a boost timing master, increasing fuel flow to prevent leanout, and/or using a fuel additive to raise octane level. The cooling system also needs to be in good condition to prevent overheating, which may lead to detonation.
The TVS1900 setup will run btw 5-6# of boost which is at max at 2,000 rpms, perfect for highway speeds in 4th gear. I'm typically never above 4,000 rpms when pulling hard for short periods. These LS engines love to rev, but that isn't me.
I hear you on pre-detonation. I know I would have to run 93 Octane to avoid this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acadianbob View Post
I hope you have good success with your setup! Forced induction is great for producing torque at lower RPM ranges.

I would exercise some caution as your cooling system, engine internals, transmission, etc . aren't designed for the extra heat/stress, etc.

My guess is that you will be fine with moderate boost and reasonable RPM.

Good luck! Post some results over time. I'm interested in your outcome.
Exactly - Forced induction is great for low rpm torque gains. The trans loading/heat concern is mine as well. I've never exceeded 170F with my trans pulling my Crusader, even during long climbs, so I know I've got some headroom there. The 4L80E trans I've got is very stout and is rated to handle up to 700lb-ft of torque.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattb View Post
There are so many blogs/websites about hopping up the LS series engines from GM. LS1tech is one of my favorites. If I had an extra 5k laying around i'd slap a SC on my 6.0 in a heartbeat, 03 w/90k mi. without worries. These engines so far outpace their gen1 and gen2 counterparts it is amazing. You tube LS engine anything, they are literally everywhere in everything making tons of power and torque reliably, with proper restraint and maintenance they will survive. The SC manufacturers have engineered engine longevity into their product, a heavy right foot takes it out. Look into the build specs of the 6.0, six bolt mains, strong cranks, tough blocks, excellent head design.

LS Engine News & Discussion - LS1Tech.com
Chevy Truck Forum | Silverado Sierra GMC Truck Forums
Chevy Trucks - FullSizeChevy.com

Just a few, there is one for just about every car/truck the general ever made with an LS series engine.
Thanks. I've been to all of the forums and there is some great info to be had. Yes the LS engine platform is great and durable. My LQ4 is especially sought after and most suited for forced induction. It has the right 317 heads, and a cast iron block. Magnuson has designed their product specifically for these engines. They have also worked with GM on the Chevy Heartbeat setup, so there is a lot of intelligence behind the design.
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Old 01-25-2015, 05:52 PM   #15
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Old 01-25-2015, 06:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zs325RES View Post
Good stuff, thanks.
These are my concerns as well.
The kit does come with an ECM programmer, but Black Bear will also reflash my ECM for free for life if I do any other mods. I'm considering a very respected local engine performance shop (Baker Engineering) to do the install. They would do a complete dyno tune to dial it in. This would include the trans tune.
I'm already running synth fluids everywhere which have all been changed recently, so I'm good there. And I'm a bit anal about running fresh DexCool.
Good deal. If there's a local shop that can precision tune your exact setup I'd go with it, they can get the tunes really close from the distributor but there's always minor differences once on your exact truck.

Just don't be there when they tune it. They'll go through mid throttle and cruise, but they'll also do a wide open throttle run to make sure it won't lean out if you put it on the floor. Nothing wrong with it, they're not going to see if it'll pull 7,000RPM, but lots of owners don't like seeing or hearing it.
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Old 01-25-2015, 06:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKnight View Post
Good deal. If there's a local shop that can precision tune your exact setup I'd go with it, they can get the tunes really close from the distributor but there's always minor differences once on your exact truck.

Just don't be there when they tune it. They'll go through mid throttle and cruise, but they'll also do a wide open throttle run to make sure it won't lean out if you put it on the floor. Nothing wrong with it, they're not going to see if it'll pull 7,000RPM, but lots of owners don't like seeing or hearing it.
LOL!
Like this one at Baker Engineering.
Silverado LQ4 6.0L with the Magnacharger TVS1900

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Old 01-25-2015, 07:04 PM   #18
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Lol, yep, that's the sound!
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Old 01-25-2015, 10:19 PM   #19
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I wish you luck with this mod... but I can't agree with the comparisons to the EcoBoost. That engine and the materials it's made of are designed for forced induction under load, for long periods. The extra cylinder pressure during combustion is considered during the initial engineering phase and they are tested pretty harshly.
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Old 01-25-2015, 10:48 PM   #20
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I wish you luck with this mod... but I can't agree with the comparisons to the EcoBoost. That engine and the materials it's made of are designed for forced induction under load, for long periods. The extra cylinder pressure during combustion is considered during the initial engineering phase and they are tested pretty harshly.
X2 these are considerations by the Engine builder, not the accessories providers.
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