Tacoma spinout

acadianbob · 12-16-2010, 11:07 AM

I've been thinking about this situation a bit. I wonder if a contributing factor might not have been the rear spring boosters. I have done a bit of autocrossing and have some experience setting up cars with suspension modifications. Stiffening the rear will increase the tendency of a vehicle to go into over-steer; that is the rear end coming around before the front end lets go. So, the combination of stiffer rear suspension, no WD hitch, and no sway control probably all contributed to the back end of the truck not being able to handle the situation. It may have been triggered by a lane change with a low tire. But here is the thing and I don't mean this to be harsh. I have read this kind of statement numerous times on numerous boards. "I never had any problem before". What happens is that there is a triggering event. Could be any number of things; semi, wind, curve, getting cut off, sudden stop, need to swerve. Then if your setup is marginal, you are in trouble because you are "too close to the edge" or not enough reserve stability to get you out of the situation. I would highly recommend a WD hitch and sway control. You might even consider backing off of your spring package. Presumably, the Taco is able to handle a WD hitch; not sure about that. So when you get your new trailer, please, please change your setup for everyone's safety.

Enjoy your new trailer and camping! Be safe!

Another thought: If the suspension mods raise the truck, that is also not good.

LadyWindrider · 12-16-2010, 11:36 AM

I don't want to be the police, but I think the lesson here is when you're towing near the max, you need all the safety devices you can get. We can speculate till doomsday over whether a ant-sway hitch would have prevented this. We can talk about suspension mods, etc. All of it is just talk. Bottom line for me, NEVER SAY MY TRUCK CAN HANDLE IT!!!! Double and triple check everything, hitch, lights, brakes, tires, and proceed with caution.

grhodes50 · 12-16-2010, 11:43 AM

Good advice from acadianbob and windrider.

While considering if your tv has enough power to tow your tt and bear the tt's hitch weight, you should also consider how it may handle that tt in adverse conditions.

08flagvlite · 12-16-2010, 03:00 PM

I do recall that the original poster that had the unfortunate accident already acknowledged that the next time he will most definitely be using a weight distributing hitch. Randy

samsc03 · 12-16-2010, 06:18 PM

We thank everyone for their input as it is all taken seriously. Just waiting to hear what the appraiser eventually says about the claim.

So in speculation if any tow rig loses tire pressure quickly,has mechanical failure of some sort or any other situation on the road and is too hard to manage is not capable of doing what it was doing before the accident. Is this what you mean? I am speaking of mid size pickups pulling TT's,1/2 -3/4 ton trucks pulling TT's and 5th's. If any one of them is to lose control they are not capable of doing the haul?

I understand what you are saying about the rear suspension, but it is not stiff. The front is actually more firm than the rear. Yes i will also be adding the best WD and sway control hitch for me in the future of course.

grhodes50 · 12-16-2010, 06:42 PM

There will always be situations that can arise that no matter what tow vehicle/trailer combination you have, you will not be able to control the situation.

I don't believe that you need a 1 ton dually to tow a pop up, nor do I believe that if your tv's tow capacity is 10,000 lbs you should feel safe towing 10,000 lbs, or as stated before being "too close to the edge". It doesn't hurt to have a little safety margin built in just in case you run into something like the OP stated, low tire pressure not rapid air loss.

I'm all for someone getting the biggest and best tt that their pocket book and tv can handle, but before we max out on our tv's ratings, lets just at least take some time and think about a little wiggle room. Just in case.

Fair enough?

samsc03 · 12-17-2010, 03:40 PM

"Presumably, the Taco is able to handle a WD hitch; not sure about that."

Why would a Tacoma not be able to handle a WD hitch? Curious

Sam and Tonya

MtnGuy · 12-17-2010, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsc03

"Presumably, the Taco is able to handle a WD hitch; not sure about that."

Why would a Tacoma not be able to handle a WD hitch? Curious

Sam and Tonya

Sam, some vehicles don't recommend using a WDH. That is usually the smaller SUVs that have unibody construction. I think the Tacoma has a full frame, and as long as instruction manual doesn't forbid it, a WDH should be fine. I can't think that something rated to tow 6500 lbs. would prohibit WDHs. You can also check your hitch.....that should show the maximum tongue weights with and without a WDH.

08flagvlite · 12-17-2010, 06:56 PM

Just be sure the hitch's framework attaches to the truck's frame, not just the bumper. Usually it should be stating at least a class 3 hitch. I don't believe you can find a class IV for the Tacoma. My Ram has a factory class III reciever, which some may say is not enough. The hitch and removable frame itself with the WD Reese Dual cam setup is class IV, however. Randy

acadianbob · 12-17-2010, 06:57 PM

Hey Sam. Here is something else. Make sure your trailer is level when being towed. Tongue up, Tail down is a receipe for sway. Just another thought. Happy camping.

b

crocus · 12-18-2010, 06:52 AM

samsc03
" I am speaking of mid size pickups pulling TT's,1/2 -3/4 ton trucks pulling TT's and 5th's. If any one of them is to lose control they are not capable of doing the haul?"

Basically, yes. With a proper setup, one should never lose control on a dry highway. Ice, of course, is another matter altogether.
I have had blowouts and didn't even notice until I saw chunks of rubber flying out from under the trailer. I have been in panic stops and the trailer and tv stayed straight and true. We have been hit with a sudden 60 mph gust of wind (dead-on crosswind due to a massive dust devil), and all it did was move the truck and fifth over into the next lane, time span about one second. Unit stayed straight and true, no sway whatsoever.
That is a proper setup.

samsc03 · 12-18-2010, 09:32 AM

actually it was more nose down ass up. Yes the hitch is attached to the frame directly and it is the heaviest duty hitch I could get.

Sam and Tonya

MtnGuy · 12-18-2010, 10:27 AM

Sam, I think you will see a big difference in how your new trailer tows when you get your WDH and sway control properly set up.

A couple of things that you might consider:

Have someone thoroughly check your hitch to make sure it wasn't damaged by the twisting motion when your trailer overturned.

I think you stated that you have E rated tires on your Tacoma. Those have really stiff sidewalls, and wonder if that actually can hurt the towing due to the lack of flexibility. In my case, I have the P rated that came on the truck, but want to go with a little stiffer LT tire when the time comes, but I think an E rated tire will be overkill on my 1/2 ton truck.

Maybe Bobby (wmtire) can chime in on this.

F and E Damp · 12-18-2010, 10:38 AM

I am continually amazed by the TV towing capability discussions. Folks in Europe have much higher tow ratings than the US does on the same vehicles. As an example - my US market 03 Kia Sedona is rated to tow 3500 pounds. The same vehcle in Europe is rated for 3000 kilograms (6600 pounds).

My uncle was an enthusiastic "caravanner" and towed about an 18' coach-built (wood frame, aluminum skinned) TT. In over 20 years (1955 - 1975). He never had an accident with the rig, even though he towed it with an Austin Cambridge (1.5L, 60 hp on a good day) and later with a short wheelbase Land Rover (similar to the Defender sold here, sxcept with a 2.0L 4-cylinder engine with about 85 hp). They went all over Europe with that set-up (Swiss Alps, Bavaria, French Pyrenees).

He was a fairly agressive driver without the TT hooked on, but with the very low power-to-weight ratio, he was awful slow with the TT on the back. Note that those vehicles had drum brakes all round, and the only brakes on the TT were surge brakes.

He was a memeber of the Caravan Club, a British equivalent of Good Sam, and they went to rallies just about every weekend. On the occasions I went along, I don't remember seeing anything bigger than a Mk IX Jaguar pulling a TT, exept one member who had a big V8 Dodge sedan. The majority used Land Rovers, even on the bigger TTs.

samsc03 · 12-18-2010, 12:03 PM

I always assumed the higher load range related to the more hauling capacity. It did keep them from flopping over when we were sideways and also not being completely down on the ground when the pressure dropped so low.

Definitely looking for the best frame shop in town to take a look at it. Especially the hitch area as the cab managed to meet the bed and that can't be good since it went back tgo where it was. The hitch back there does help sure up the frame ends I have always heard. Insurance for the truck is at 2,200 so far. Still waiting on the TT insurance for the final answer on what they will do.

Sam and Tonya

MtnGuy · 12-19-2010, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samsc03

I always assumed the higher load range related to the more hauling capacity. It did keep them from flopping over when we were sideways and also not being completely down on the ground when the pressure dropped so low.

With E rated tires on a Tacoma, you should have plenty of hauling capacity.....for the tires only. You still have the same weight rating on the axle.

In my case, I have P (passenger ??) tires on my truck that came as standard equipment. My rear GAWR is 3850, and each tire is rated at 2205. Even though I have 4410 lbs. of tire rating, I still only have a 3850 lb. axle. I like the little extra leeway with the tires, and I am not at the GAWR. The reason that I want to go with the LT tires when it is time to replace, is to go with something with a little stiffer sideway and little more leeway in the weights. I figure the slightly stiffer sidewall will help with my trailer towing. But going to something like an E rated tire, might actually be overkill. Those sidewalls wouldn't have much give at all, and would probably be way too stiff for my application. I don't think I would enjoy the rough ride, either.

Who knows, maybe the E rated tires saved your truck by not folding under during that wild sideways ride. But maybe they also could have contributed to the initial problem by not gripping enough when the trailer started to sway. All speculation here.

samsc03 · 12-19-2010, 09:04 AM

Oh most definitely all speculation. It's all fine. I understand completely what you mean by the tires and the vehicles hauling limits. The reason the load range E tires stayed with the truck when we got the camper was beacause it did give me a very durable tire as well as not limiting the hauling capacity. I have never had grip issue with them in the dry pavement,I am sure I had more grip as the tire was going down but it was also creating the trigger like everyone here said. The truck has always rode like a board whether this suspension was on it or not.

**wmtire** · 12-19-2010, 09:40 AM

I am kind of coming in here at the tail end of this discussion. Can I ask what Load Range E tire you are using? The reason I ask, is that LT tires can have a thicker/wider bead area (to handle the heavier load stresses).

Rims made for Passenger (P) tires usually have a smaller bead flange, than rims designed for LT tires.

There are certain tires , like Goodyear G159, G169, etc......that do not perform well at all when placed on a rim with a smaller bead flange. You can get what is called bead rolling....where the bead tries to roll over the rim bead flange. This "can" cause handling problems in certain situations.

I'm by no means saying this was the cause of your problems, but just putting this onfo out there as a FYI thing for everyone to educate themselves a little on.

samsc03 · 12-19-2010, 11:49 AM

Toyo Open Country M/T.

acadianbob · 12-20-2010, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F and E Damp

I am continually amazed by the TV towing capability discussions. Folks in Europe have much higher tow ratings than the US does on the same vehicles. As an example - my US market 03 Kia Sedona is rated to tow 3500 pounds. The same vehcle in Europe is rated for 3000 kilograms (6600 pounds).

You would have to be absolutely crazy to attempt to pull 6600 pounds with a Kia Sedona.

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