TIRES???

[wmtire]

I think there may be some confusion possibly on what the FMCSA is referring to as non-commercial tires. I don't even really understand why they would have any regs pertaining to passenger tires, since passenger vehicles to my understanding are not under the scope of the FMCSA.

I am curious, and even more curious as to if this was correct, why passenger tire manufacturers are not adhering to it. You would think that the tire manufacturers would be up to par on govt regulations that affected them?

FMVSS is where I get my passenger tire regs usually.

[Davidjeff]

Sidecar, I am not disputing whether they should have or not have the paint dots. What I am stating is very many now don't in the passenger car side

[SidecarFlip]

One thing I do need to make clear is that while DOT regulations state without exception that all new tires be balance point marked, when you buy a set of or one tire, the mark may bot be visible...

The mark was placed on the carcass sidewall at the factory but the mark is made in a contrasting ink, usually white in the case of consumer tires, however, it can get rubbed off in handing.

Tires are shipped via commercial carrier (like the one I work for) in dry vans, stacked inside, on their sidewalls. The sidewalls rub together in transit, then get rubbed again when offloaded, rubbed again when racked and rubbed again when shipped to a retail dealer and rubbed again when installed. All that rubbing sometimes renders the balance mark illegible. Why raised white letter sidewalls have the blue contact film applied, so they don't get scuffed in transit.

There is nothing protective on the balance mark, in fact, when I mount a tire personally (I mount all my own tires, I own a Coats tire machine and balancer stand, I take a paint marker and mark the balance point because just washing a sidewall will remove it.

The regulations don't state what has to be used for the mark (usually a circle or dot in white), only that they have to be marked when leaving the OEM.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by SidecarFlip

He may be right on prevailing torque on the nuts on screw down valve stems but, in my other life (not camping), I'm a Federally authorized examiner trainer for commercial drivers and I'm a safety and risk management officer for a large commercial carrier.

I'm quoting the regulation concerning static balance indicators on tires from the FMCSA handbook, parts 40, 202, 325. 350-399 Inclusive. The regulation regarding manufacturers to mark the heaviest point on any new tire applied to class 6-8 truck tires and non commercial tires as well and has been in force for a number of years. Non commercial tires manufacturers are required to only provide one indicator whereas commercial tire manufacturers are required to provide 3 marks of different colors, usually red, green and blue with green being the centerpoint.

You can go read the regs if you want to. I happen to have the book sitting here but they are online and at your library...

ISBN Number is: 978-1-60287-592-0

My License number and Certification number is: 6998

Next.....

Cars, SUVs, Pick-up trucks, motor homes, RV trailers etc..etc.. are not built to FMCSA regulations, they are built in accordance with FMVSS regulations & standards.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Cars, SUVs, Pick-up trucks, motor homes, RV trailers etc..etc.. are not built to FMCSA regulations, they are built in accordance with FMVSS regulations & standards.

Agreed Airdale, and specifically these in the link below FMVSS 109 and 139, of which I cannot find anything requiring high point or balance marks, as the tire labeling requirements are very detailed. Now there could be a difference where OE fitments are concerned...and that might be some of the confusion.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-20...sec571-109.pdf

If there is a law that somehow supercedes these regs, I am still not aware of it and know that not all tire manufacturers are adhering to it if applicable.

[SidecarFlip]

Discussing tires, not chassis components or builds. Tires, like every accessory are outsourced from various manufacturers. While you don't consider tires an accessory, vehicle manufacturers do...why, when you purchase any NEW vehicle, the tire warranty is a separate item in your owners manual...if you read it...

For most people, owner's manuals are an option.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by SidecarFlip

Wrong, it's a Federal DOT requirement for all tires, passenger and commercial.

Not here to dance with you... Don't want to but your statement I bolded is flat wrong.

But then again, you may be a retired authority key word retired. It's a Federal regulation.

Have a good time with your blog or whatever it is.

No need to dance. I am here to learn and I hope to spread engineering facts but if I am wrong I would really like to know as the last thing I want to do is spread incorrect information. So please educate me on the points I am wrong about, and I will be sure to correct my posting about high point or balance marks. Where in FMVSS do I find the regulation?

Do you also feel I am wrong about the bolt-in metal valve nut torque range? Is that also something I am missing in the DOT requirements?

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by rracer5

I don't care what anybody says. When I hear what sounds like a 12 guage shotgun going off and look in the mirror and see pieces of tire/tread flying off in all directions, it's a "blowout"!

I don't care if it started as "tread separation", it still blew out.

Yes you can call it whatever you want but if you don't have a proper understanding of the real condition of a failed tire then there is a good chance you will not have a correct understanding of the cause of the failure which means the corrective action you take may not solve the problem.

Possible situation: You have a "blowout" when the belts and tread came off on your 6 year old tires. You look at the tire brand and where it is made and see "made in China" so you decide it is a "China Bomb" go out and find a tire not made in China. Low and behold a couple weeks later you have another "Blowout" through the sidewall this time you spend an extra $100 and get a higher ply rating. And then another "Blowout" also through the sidewall
Finally someone points out that two of your tires had similar line of failed sidewall running almost 360 degrees around each tire and shows you a picture of melted Polyester tire cord from some stupid blog on RV tires they saw. It is suggested you get new bolt in metal valves and the tire jockey checks the metal valve you already have and shows you the nut was loose and that air could leak out at the rim/valve hole. So you now know the first failure was a Tread/Belt separation from old age and heat and failures #2 and #3 were Run Low Sidewall Flex failure due to leaking air from the valve.. But that's OK you can still call all 3 failures "Blowouts"

[Tireman9]

My experience since 1977 or so is not with Commercial vehicle application but Passenger, and LT when we are talking about normal highway use. OE car companies do want balance and or high point dots, marks, stickers etc on the tires and to my knowledge tires made for possible OR vehicle application do get some mark. BUT I am also certain that not "all" tires carry such a mark/sticker as this costs money and if a tire is a price leader (low cost) like ST type tires and many no-name tires are then the cost of doing the measurement to know where a sticker should go is something that some do not want to pay for.

There are just too many unknowns in the world of tires to use words such as "all" or "every" or "always" as some people will incorrectly assume these things are absolutes and few things are.

I will be a strong proponent of "never" mounting a tire that is more than a decade old. BUT I have personally mounted a set of tires that were over 45 years old but they were destined for The Henry Ford Museum on the Goldenrod land speed record car and I was confident that they would never touch the ground and rolled, so there is almost always an exception to every rule or guideline.

[emm-dee]

I don't see where the "balance dot" on a tire has any useful purpose unless one knows they have a perfectly balanced wheel (without the valve stem installed). That wheel is a rarity. When I had the Maxxis tires installed a few months back the installer originally balanced them with the dot aligned with the stem. Well, sorta, because one of the four tires did not have any dot marking. With the original balance two of the tires showed a need for more than one ounce of offsetting weight. The tech moved the tires on the rim to compensate for wheel (not tire) balance. In the end, each wheel required less than ½ ounce of weight

[f5moab]

Originally Posted by SidecarFlip

One thing I do need to make clear is that while DOT regulations state without exception that all new tires be balance point marked, when you buy a set of or one tire, the mark may bot be visible...

The mark was placed on the carcass sidewall at the factory but the mark is made in a contrasting ink, usually white in the case of consumer tires, however, it can get rubbed off in handing.

Tires are shipped via commercial carrier (like the one I work for) in dry vans, stacked inside, on their sidewalls. The sidewalls rub together in transit, then get rubbed again when offloaded, rubbed again when racked and rubbed again when shipped to a retail dealer and rubbed again when installed. All that rubbing sometimes renders the balance mark illegible. Why raised white letter sidewalls have the blue contact film applied, so they don't get scuffed in transit.

There is nothing protective on the balance mark, in fact, when I mount a tire personally (I mount all my own tires, I own a Coats tire machine and balancer stand, I take a paint marker and mark the balance point because just washing a sidewall will remove it.

The regulations don't state what has to be used for the mark (usually a circle or dot in white), only that they have to be marked when leaving the OEM.

Please, I'm still waiting for the CFR (code of federal regulation), which is the basis for Federal regulations. I have done a few searches on ecfr and can find no federal "requirement." So, if stating there is a Federal requirement, a person usually has access to the codes, thus the statute that pertains to this code.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by f5moab

Please, I'm still waiting for the CFR (code of federal regulation), which is the basis for Federal regulations. I have done a few searches on ecfr and can find no federal "requirement." So, if stating there is a Federal requirement, a person usually has access to the codes, thus the statute that pertains to this code.

This is just one of those situations where it was 'thought' something was one way, but it wasn't. I have been in touch with the member, and it's been verified that there is no such federal regulation concerning balance/hi point marks on either commercial or passenger tires.

[f5moab]

Originally Posted by wmtire

This is just one of those situations where it was 'thought' something was one way, but it wasn't. I have been in touch with the member, and it's been verified that there is no such federal regulation concerning balance/hi point marks on either commercial or passenger tires.

I know.

[emm-dee]

OK then. Back to the original?? What's the red/white dot mean.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by emm-dee

OK then. Back to the original?? What's the red/white dot mean.

That's not the original question, but Airdale did provide this answer in the link in his post #34.

[Blackrock]

[OldCoot]

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by wmtire

That's not the original question, but Airdale did provide this answer in the link in his post #34.

Original, in this case meant to be the dot. I did read the referenced and all I got from that was the dot may or may not indicate balance point or position reference or whatever. There is no specific rule about the use of the dot.

Best I can come up with is when you see the dot it definitely means someone put a dot on the tire.

[mike.t]

Sidecar. I have never been charged a balance charge when i get new tires why bother balancing them if they are marked seems a waste of time. When i bought my "new" Ram it has weights on it from the factory maybe you should point this out to them think of all the time and material they would save.

[emm-dee]

Originally Posted by mike.t

Sidecar. I have never been charged a balance charge when i get new tires why bother balancing them if they are marked seems a waste of time. When i bought my "new" Ram it has weights on it from the factory maybe you should point this out to them think of all the time and material they would save.

Pretty sure it's a rare thing to find a set of perfectly balanced wheels.