To delete or not

[tlhigham]

My sentiments exactly. Only issues I've ever had in 130000 miles were all emissions related. Take a perfectly good motor and screw it up with scr and egr, reduce mpg and power. I'll just about bet my emissions are less than the non-deletes. And once again, Tn don't test where I'm at anyway. They may in Nashville and Memphis, but I don't live or work in either.

[SmittyCorp]

Originally Posted by Carguy1965

. Lastly I am open to what goes out the tail pipe of a deleted truck that doesn't go out the tailpipe of a stock one ?


Legit question, I am open minded to the answer.

Oxides of nitrogen and diesel particulate matter (soot).

[mwdilday]

It is illegal to delete.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...tA-sec7522.htm

[blackfly]

Originally Posted by mwdilday

It is illegal to delete.

These might as well put a huge smokestack out of the back of the pickup while they are at it and go roll some coal.

[tlhigham]

Requirements to Pass the Tennessee Smog Check
Gas and diesel vehicles weighing less than 10,500 lbs and made in 1975 or newer, must get a Tennessee smog check if the vehicle owner registered the vehicle in one of the following counties:

Hamilton
Rutherford
Sumner
Williamson
Wilson
Also, the following vehicles are NOT exempt from passing a Tennessee smog check:
Salvaged vehicles
Homemade vehicles
Hybrid vehicles
Rebuilt vehicles
Smog Check Exemptions for Tennessee Drivers
The State of Tennessee exempts the following vehicles from state smog check requirements:

Motorcycles
Brand new motor vehicles getting their first registration
Vehicles weighing more 10,500 lbs
*Electric vehicles weighing less than 8500 lbs (this does not include hybrids)
Vehicles that are temporarily out of state
Vehicles with antique registrations
Gasoline vehicles weighing less than 8500 lbs made before the 1975 model year
Plus my reprogram is stock, so no coal smoke .

[Carguy1965]

Originally Posted by SmittyCorp

Oxides of nitrogen and diesel particulate matter (soot).

Please elaborate, The DPM is simply captured by the filter until such time as the filter is full and regen takes place. Then as stated earlier it is heated to a very high temp, sprayed with DEF and cooked out of the filter where it then proceeds out the tail pipe just like it would have before.. Some of the exhaust products may eventually leave the tail pipe in a chemically altered form, but they still go out that pipe sooner or later. None of it stays in there forever.



All those controls accomplish is making the vehicle capable of passing an emissions test while they are not in regen mode. As soon as it goes into regen, it all comes out anyway.

[mwdilday]

Originally Posted by Carguy1965

Please elaborate, The DPM is simply captured by the filter until such time as the filter is full and regen takes place. Then as stated earlier it is heated to a very high temp, sprayed with DEF and cooked out of the filter where it then proceeds out the tail pipe just like it would have before.. Some of the exhaust products may eventually leave the tail pipe in a chemically altered form, but they still go out that pipe sooner or later. None of it stays in there forever.



All those controls accomplish is making the vehicle capable of passing an emissions test while they are not in regen mode. As soon as it goes into regen, it all comes out anyway.

Hmmm. I think there is more to it than just storing the bad exhaust until after the EPA test is done then spitting it out later. Maybe it is more like "DEF is sprayed into the exhaust stream of diesel vehicles to break down dangerous NOx emissions into harmless nitrogen and water. This system is called Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) and can be found on 2010 and later model year trucks and many diesel pickups and SUVs."

[SmittyCorp]

Originally Posted by Carguy1965

Please elaborate, The DPM is simply captured by the filter until such time as the filter is full and regen takes place. Then as stated earlier it is heated to a very high temp, sprayed with DEF and cooked out of the filter where it then proceeds out the tail pipe just like it would have before.. Some of the exhaust products may eventually leave the tail pipe in a chemically altered form, but they still go out that pipe sooner or later. None of it stays in there forever.



All those controls accomplish is making the vehicle capable of passing an emissions test while they are not in regen mode. As soon as it goes into regen, it all comes out anyway.

The DEF systems inject the fluid into the exhaust, where it's broken down by heat into ammonia and carbon dioxide. The ammonia and the engines oxides of nitrogen (NOx) pollutants go into a catalyst that converts them into nitrogen and water, which are not pollutants. Without the DEF system, the engine will put out more NOx. EGR systems are also intended to reduce NOx.

DPF captures soot particulates. These are fine physical particulates that float around in the air and are not good for you. When the DPF gets full, the regen cycle is supposed to clean it via heat. There's various methods for heating, from engine management with late fuel injection, to injecting fuel directly into the exhaust, to electric coils. Soot is incompletely combusted fuel. The regen cycle finishes burning it, so no more particulates. Removing the DPF will have obvious results - more particulate output.

So yes, all the stuff comes out anyway, but in different forms. The non-deleted engines will put out less NOx, and less particulate matter, so long as the systems are functioning properly. No debate about the pollution reduction of these emissions systems. OEM's wouldn't install expensive unreliable systems like these if they did not reduce emissions to keep them in compliance with the EPA. However, as mentioned, they do reduce economy. Which is worse for the planet? The higher emissions with better fuel economy, or the additional fuel required for cleaner engines? That's harder to answer.

[SlowrideHD]

The previous posts stating that dealers will not take deleted trucks in on trade are either made up exaggerations out of ignorance....or deliberate lies.
My brother traded his 2015 Dodge 3500 with full delete and tuner at a south Texas dealer last March and the dealer could not have cared less. The salesman told him that a big part of their business through their shop was on trucks that had been deleted already. They had no issue with it.

[Feel Swift]

Originally Posted by SlowrideHD

The previous posts stating that dealers will not take deleted trucks in on trade are either made up exaggerations out of ignorance....or deliberate lies.
My brother traded his 2015 Dodge 3500 with full delete and tuner at a south Texas dealer last March and the dealer could not have cared less. The salesman told him that a big part of their business through their shop was on trucks that had been deleted already. They had no issue with it.

Just because some dealer took a deleted truck in on trade does not mean they all will. Back in the day you even had dealers who would roll back the odometer a few clicks, then you have the silly honest dealers lol.

Not illegal to take a deleted trade but it sure is to resell it for use. It was probably taken straight to a dealer only auction which is not illegal, and ended up on some used car lot. A new car dealer is not going to spend the bucks to put it back stock and then put it out on his used lot. And most are not going to break EPA regs reselling it.

EPA recently started cracking down and did so at the easiest places, the folks who make the parts/kits and provide the tunes. They also have supposedly seized all the sales records so they know who purchased the same.

That is with an administration in place who has been scaling back EPA regs. When and if that situation changes you'll have some folks in control who not only want the EPA to head to the stricter side of the fence, but are hell bent to make the ICE, all of them gas or diesel, a thing of the past.

[NMWildcat]

Just depends on where you live. Around here, deleted trucks are bought and sold on a regular basis. We have three local diesel performance shops that advertise delete service. Every diesel on the family farm is deleted. We used to keep the emissions crap we took off for future sale, now we just toss it. My son in AZ just bought his second deleted diesel from a dealer in TX. We have no inspections.
If deleting and/or not following federal regs makes you squeamish, don't do it. The rest of us will continue to enjoy the benefits. Simple

[badger5301]

Traded our 2009 Ford F350 with the 6.4 that I had deleted two years prior. I was up front with the dealer and told them about my truck prior to our deal. Did not seem to bother them and they gave me book price for the trade. Have no idea what happened to our old truck after the deal but they sure did us well on the trade. Loved that truck but we both just got to the point we didn't need the diesel any longer. Very happy with our Ram 2500 gasser as it pulls our 32' fifth wheel very well. By the way, our delete was done with stock tune and we did notice some improvement after it was done.

[KyDan]

Accusing another member of posting "an outright lie" or general government bashing is NOT gonna fly here.
Keep is civil and keep it about RVing or keep it to yourself.
If your post is slightly edited or removed without comment you know why.

[ronheater70]

Originally Posted by Feel Swift

Just because some dealer took a deleted truck in on trade does not mean they all will.

Just because some dealers won't doesn't mean they all won't. There is always a market, and if the era crackdown goes further there will be an incredible black market for some of those trucks worth a fortune.

[tugboat369]

I have gone back and forth on this each time my emission system needs work. The emission system is covered for 100,000 miles not sure on the years but my 2011 F250 had a problem with the DEF system at 91,000 and it was covered and the truck itself is out of warranty.
I make a lot of trips from my place in TN to Home in NC a 114 mile trip one way. When towing I got 14 to 19 mpg depending on were. But running light I have gotten over 29mpg. I found that the sweet spot for my truck is 64mph and it gets the best milage. See picture attached

[upflying]

The question to delete or not may come down to whether shops and the aftermarket will continue to support the delete demand.
Since the EPA is fining and prosecuting the delete installers and aftermarket components, the delete industry will be forced to go underground in a clandestine and black-market manner.
Delete kits will be out there but you will have to know someone who will refer you to someone and pay cash while a shade tree, backyard tech does the work for you.
Hopefully you got your delete kits, they will be hard to find and delete websites go dark.

[Carguy1965]

Originally Posted by SmittyCorp

The DEF systems inject the fluid into the exhaust, where it's broken down by heat into ammonia and carbon dioxide. The ammonia and the engines oxides of nitrogen (NOx) pollutants go into a catalyst that converts them into nitrogen and water, which are not pollutants. Without the DEF system, the engine will put out more NOx. EGR systems are also intended to reduce NOx.

DPF captures soot particulates. These are fine physical particulates that float around in the air and are not good for you. When the DPF gets full, the regen cycle is supposed to clean it via heat. There's various methods for heating, from engine management with late fuel injection, to injecting fuel directly into the exhaust, to electric coils. Soot is incompletely combusted fuel. The regen cycle finishes burning it, so no more particulates. Removing the DPF will have obvious results - more particulate output.

So yes, all the stuff comes out anyway, but in different forms. The non-deleted engines will put out less NOx, and less particulate matter, so long as the systems are functioning properly. No debate about the pollution reduction of these emissions systems. OEM's wouldn't install expensive unreliable systems like these if they did not reduce emissions to keep them in compliance with the EPA. However, as mentioned, they do reduce economy. Which is worse for the planet? The higher emissions with better fuel economy, or the additional fuel required for cleaner engines? That's harder to answer.

Thank You Sir, You and mwdilday as well..
Very well thought out and detailed answer to my question.. Much appreciated. I would say we can agree it all still comes out of the pipe, but I will concede in a different form for sure. No clue ultimately as to what is really best for the environment overall as I would still maintain that there is a real impact from the production of all the DEF itself, but I appreciate your explanations..



Be safe out there !

[SlowrideHD]

Originally Posted by KyDan

Accusing another member of posting "an outright lie" or general government bashing is NOT gonna fly here.
Keep is civil and keep it about RVing or keep it to yourself.
If your post is slightly edited or removed without comment you know why.

My apologies. I get a bit sideways when people post opinions that they state as a fact, when there is little basis or backup for the statement. It seems that oftentimes there are things posted as being factual in attempts to convince others of a somewhat biased view.

[SmittyCorp]

Originally Posted by Carguy1965

Thank You Sir, You and mwdilday as well..
Very well thought out and detailed answer to my question.. Much appreciated. I would say we can agree it all still comes out of the pipe, but I will concede in a different form for sure. No clue ultimately as to what is really best for the environment overall as I would still maintain that there is a real impact from the production of all the DEF itself, but I appreciate your explanations..



Be safe out there !

I'm glad to help. I just wanted to make sure people realize that deletes do increase harmful emmissions. How much of an increase, and how bad that is for the environment is more debatable. Not to mention as you hinted at, the impact of not only making the DEF fluid, but the mining and processing that is required to get the platinum and other exotic materials used in the catalysts. That, much like the lithium and nickel required for electric cars, really muddies the benefits of the "green" tech. But at the moment, DEF and DPF are the most reasonable way OEMs can meet the new requirements. If the rules change, or better/cheaper tech is developed, I bet manufacturers will quickly adopt.

[rg0403]

Just my opinion. But as RV’ers in general is because we appreciate nature. And would hopefully do our part to maintain it for future generations. To eliminate pollution control on a vehicle seems counter productive to the first statement. I own semi trucks and have for years. Have had some without emissions some with just egr. Some with dpf. Some will egr, dpf, and def. Idling is the killer to the situation. The newest systems with dpf and def are far less trouble then the earlier systems. My Volvo semi with SCR motor gets the best mileage I have ever gotten from my trucks. I have an auxiliary power unit for ac while parked so I don’t idle. It doesn’t give me any emission issues and has almost 600K on odometer. So I don’t really see the benefit to polluting more then necessary as well as breaking the law to do so. Not trying to ruffle feathers here just my opinion.