Tow vehicle question.

[SKnight]

Originally Posted by Charles Firth

I have the same problem I tow a 32ft Windjammer with a gas F250, that loves every gas station it passes. It tows just fine, but I WANT a F250 diesel. I am giving it second thoughts aside from the huge price tag, diesel fuel around here is between 50-75 cents higher. I believe diesel requires more maintenance and not to mention 15 Quarts of oil. (you can tell I am trying to talk myself out of a diesel ). To each his own, but I still want one, and I probably will get one whether it makes sense or not.

Beyond oil changes, which tend to come at longer intervals, and a fuel filter every 15,000 miles, what more maintenance is there? Yes, repairs are more expensive when they happen, but at the service life diesels tend to have it's a wash.

My truck currently gets 11MPG pulling at 65ish. That's currently $.36.4 a mile. Gasoline power at 9MPG pulls $.40 a mile. (Using fuel prices I saw locally, $4.00 for diesel and $3.60 for 87 octane gas.)

My old gas truck with the TT was 7MPG. That's $.51.4 per mile. On a 1,000 mile trip that's $150 saved. 10 1,000 mile trips that's $1,500 saved. So in fuel savings it doesn't pay for itself very quickly. But in quality of towing, etc. it makes up that difference.

Plus, my 1500 gas truck and 2500 diesel truck, same body style, shows the difference even more in regular driving. The 1500 was 14MPG, the diesel is 20MPG. $.25.7 for the gasser, $.20 for the diesel, per mile. In the 100,000 miles I've driven my truck as a daily driver I'll estimate 10,000 miles towing with it. 90,000 milesX$.05 per mile=$4500.

So it does catch up and balance out eventually, the Cummins option on my truck was $6500 IIRC, so I'm actually almost ahead at this point. Plus over the last several years my truck doesn't move much, I'm not racking up the miles like I used to, well not in the truck. My poor company car averages 950 miles a week.

All that boils down to this, don't get a diesel strictly on dollars. Yes, it will pay for itself but over time, the towing experience is it's reward. Going 300+ miles between fill ups compared to 150 before. Pulling a hill without downshifting and revving the engine to the moon.

A diesel is a towing experience, it's not just dollars.

[Hubcap]

Originally Posted by cstover

I love my new diesel. Went from a 2010 Tundra 5.7 to a 2014 Ram 3500 6.7. Better fuel mileage all around.

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I am looking at a 2012 Dodge Ram cummins. After reading about the DEF, it makes me wonder if i should try and find a '06-07 5.9 cummins without all of the egr, and DEF stuff.

[pwrstroke2012]

Originally Posted by davel1971

when it comes down to it, if we wanted to save money, we would just stay home. We do it because we like it and we do it with the equipment that we feel is best for us.

Exactly! I went from gas to diesel and glad I did. Even if I don't recoup my cost of a diesel the way it tows is awesome. BTW, I went from Ohio to Myrtle Beach last year and averaged 11.8 MPG at 65 mph. It tows at 1600 rpm and rarely downshifts on hills except for the bigger ones. Look at my signature to see my set up.
DEF is no big deal. I have never had an issue with it. You get more horsepower with the newer diesels (the older ones that have been tuned and deleted don't count) Also, pay the little extra for a 1 ton, many users upgrade their TT.

[Charles Firth]

SKNight, you my friend have done your home work. You break it down so it does make sense. If you ever want to get a forum going visit the topic of gas vs diesel. New prices of $60,000 is way to much for my blood, then you start looking used, a good one is very hard to find. Most have lift kits and a lots of mods. Plus you don't know if the mods were done by a professional or under a shade tree in someones backyard. So then you start looking at the new ones again that have not been tampered with. I do agree 100% if you tow most anything that has some weight diesel is the way to go. And the debate goes on.

[Cajun Po-Boy]

Originally Posted by Hubcap

I am looking at a 2012 Dodge Ram cummins. After reading about the DEF, it makes me wonder if i should try and find a '06-07 5.9 cummins without all of the egr, and DEF stuff.

IMO...yes ,)

[MillerTime]

Originally Posted by Hubcap

I am looking at a 2012 Dodge Ram cummins. After reading about the DEF, it makes me wonder if i should try and find a '06-07 5.9 cummins without all of the egr, and DEF stuff.

Dont those have an egr as well.
The egr was required long before dpf and def on dmax and pwrstroke.

MillerTime- Future Sabre Handler!!

[MillerTime]

Never mind, googled it. They don't have a typical egr, but they did have an "in-cylinder solution" to egr in later years, which does basically the same thing, dirty oil and all. I guess you have to change cam and a bunch of work to delete that.

MillerTime- Future Sabre Handler!!

[SKnight]

Originally Posted by Charles Firth

SKNight, you my friend have done your home work. You break it down so it does make sense. If you ever want to get a forum going visit the topic of gas vs diesel. New prices of $60,000 is way to much for my blood, then you start looking used, a good one is very hard to find. Most have lift kits and a lots of mods. Plus you don't know if the mods were done by a professional or under a shade tree in someones backyard. So then you start looking at the new ones again that have not been tampered with. I do agree 100% if you tow most anything that has some weight diesel is the way to go. And the debate goes on.

Been in the business my whole life, plus being in management I tend to examine the dollars behind reality which helps me understand it better.

New vs. used is a hard decision sometimes. There's the depreciation aspect, and at times you can find a great, used, low mileage truck. That's what I actually did. Mine was lifted with lift springs, but no other mods. Plus I got the factory springs so it was really easy to go back. But new? I've had three motorcycles, all new. I know the exact history, plus I tend to keep stuff forever, so the depreciation hit isn't as important to me.

There are those that just want gasoline power, and that's fine. Especially if you love Ford trucks. The 6.7 seems ok, but Ford has a bit of a sketchy diesel history lately, since the 6.0 came out. I might not trust the 6.7 yet, so I'll maybe opt for the gas engine. Less mileage, but still an adequate puller and as I showed, the return on investment is slow coming.

It's all in what you like, how you feel about a 15-20% premium on the price tag, new or used. That's something else, diesel trucks carry a premium on resale, you get that percentage back when you sell or trade in. Something else to weigh in the equation, especially if you trade often, you don't pay much for the option once you factor in trade value.

[davel1971]

those trying to discredit the benefits of buying diesel need to do a little more homework. Its not an $10,000 option. The trucks don't cost $60,000+. Diesel is not 60 cents per gallon more. Last August I paid $47,000 for a new 2014 crew cab long bed 1 ton 4x4 Duramax truck. My towing mileage went from 7.5 to 12+. That's over a 50% increase in mileage, and since the fuel only costs 15 cents per gallon more, I'm saving a money on fuel. With all the available power and lack of shifting like crazy on the slightest of hills, its a win win situation. Keep in mind that at 200,000 miles, the value of the diesel truck will be MUCH higher than an equivalent gas. Meaning you used all the extra power for no charge

[jgroff]

i need to go where you bought your truck. i just priced a chev lt 3500 diesel crew cab short box 4x4 online 59350 thats with 6000 cash credit. at 47k i would buy a diesel in a second.

Originally Posted by davel1971

those trying to discredit the benefits of buying diesel need to do a little more homework. Its not an $10,000 option. The trucks don't cost $60,000+. Diesel is not 60 cents per gallon more. Last August I paid $47,000 for a new 2014 crew cab long bed 1 ton 4x4 Duramax truck. My towing mileage went from 7.5 to 12+. That's over a 50% increase in mileage, and since the fuel only costs 15 cents per gallon more, I'm saving a money on fuel. With all the available power and lack of shifting like crazy on the slightest of hills, its a win win situation. Keep in mind that at 200,000 miles, the value of the diesel truck will be MUCH higher than an equivalent gas. Meaning you used all the extra power for no charge

[Mark S]

I have a 2011 F150 Ecoboost 4x4 with 373 gears. When I first picked up my similar weighted Work and Play trailer and towed home at 65-68 mph I got 7.5-8 mpg. I hated my truck and was ready to trade for a diesel on the way home. I then read on this forum that when towing, 60 mph seems to be the magic number. I slowed to 60 and my milage went up to 10.5, an almost 25% increase.

I always think I may want a diesel but with what I am towing and the cost differences I just can't make the costs justify the change. Try slowing to 60 (and it is hard as the Ecoboost really wants to go faster) and I think you will see a big difference.

[OldCoot]

Everyone can justify why they have what they have whether it be a gasser or a diesel and shade it in favor of their own decision. Some just have to have the biggest or newest to have something to brag about.

Mine is pure economics, my old truck is paid for, does a decent job of pulling our 5er and I can't see any reason for buying a new one to do the same thing. I would rather spend the money on other things than give it to GM, Ford or Dodge and finance companies. JMO.

[SKnight]

Originally Posted by davel1971

those trying to discredit the benefits of buying diesel need to do a little more homework. Its not an $10,000 option. The trucks don't cost $60,000+. Diesel is not 60 cents per gallon more. Last August I paid $47,000 for a new 2014 crew cab long bed 1 ton 4x4 Duramax truck. My towing mileage went from 7.5 to 12+. That's over a 50% increase in mileage, and since the fuel only costs 15 cents per gallon more, I'm saving a money on fuel. With all the available power and lack of shifting like crazy on the slightest of hills, its a win win situation. Keep in mind that at 200,000 miles, the value of the diesel truck will be MUCH higher than an equivalent gas. Meaning you used all the extra power for no charge

Dang, I've not seen a new truck like that under $50k in a long time, you stole it! I just built one online and it came in at $55k with just the base LT package and the Duramax engine, which is $8,299 with the Allison.

Second, diesel is only 15 cents more per gallon there? It's always 40 to 50 cents more than 87 octane here. Is your diesel cheap or is your gas expensive?

[dustman_stx]

Diesel has been 20% higher for years around here. Just recently gas has climbed narrowing the difference to about 10%, but I don't think that'll hold if the past is any indication, especially if we start seeing more 1/2 tons using diesel. With that being said, if you can afford it, always go diesel, IMO, if towing. You do get a large portion- maybe all- of your investment on the diesel back, but you have to be able to afford tying up ~$8K for the time you own the truck. As far as finding an 06-07 Dodge w/ a 5.9- all I'll say is good luck. In my area those are selling for $20K plus in decent shape with mileage in the low 100K's (110-140K). I've yet to come across one I'd consider immaculate. The vast majority I've looked at (dozens upon dozens) are in very poor shape, having been worked hard and abused, or they have been driven by some kid that has slapped all types of performance accessories on it and driven the snot out of it. As far as mileage goes- you will never get the same towing mileage out of a gas engine. There are fewer BTU's of energy in a gallon of gasoline than a gallon of diesel and it WILL require more to produce the same amount of work. As a side note to other Ecoboost owners- I noticed much improved mileage in 4th at ~2850 RPM than I did in 5th at (IIRC) ~2500 RPM. In 5th I could tell I was running more boost pressure which I believe increased fuel consumption. I have the 3.55 gears- 3.73 owners might need to run 5th when towing.

[Toby]

Originally Posted by Mark S

I have a 2011 F150 Ecoboost 4x4 with 373 gears. When I first picked up my similar weighted Work and Play trailer and towed home at 65-68 mph I got 7.5-8 mpg. I hated my truck and was ready to trade for a diesel on the way home. I then read on this forum that when towing, 60 mph seems to be the magic number. I slowed to 60 and my milage went up to 10.5, an almost 25% increase.

I always think I may want a diesel but with what I am towing and the cost differences I just can't make the costs justify the change. Try slowing to 60 (and it is hard as the Ecoboost really wants to go faster) and I think you will see a big difference.

I know what you mean. I have the same issues with mine (except I've never hated it). It wants to pull fast. I have the same truck except XLT. I'm going to try real hard this year to slow down because I'm also at the 8 MPG. Wish me luck! I got brand new tires on too.

[davel1971]

Originally Posted by SKnight

Dang, I've not seen a new truck like that under $50k in a long time, you stole it! I just built one online and it came in at $55k with just the base LT package and the Duramax engine, which is $8,299 with the Allison.

Second, diesel is only 15 cents more per gallon there? It's always 40 to 50 cents more than 87 octane here. Is your diesel cheap or is your gas expensive?

Sticker on my truck was just over 54,000. Moderately equipped LT.

I meant to type 15 percent more. Not cents. Either way, my increase in mileage of 50 percent means I'm saving on fuel.

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[ependydad]

Originally Posted by Hubcap

I am looking at a 2012 Dodge Ram cummins. After reading about the DEF, it makes me wonder if i should try and find a '06-07 5.9 cummins without all of the egr, and DEF stuff.

The 2012 Rams were the last year that they didn't have DEF. I can't speak to EGRs, though.

The Rams introduced DEF in the 2013 model year.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by davel1971

Sticker on my truck was just over 54,000. Moderately equipped LT.

I meant to type 15 percent more. Not cents. Either way, my increase in mileage of 50 percent means I'm saving on fuel.

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Very true that you are saving on fuel while towing. The more you tow the more a diesel makes sense. For the average owner driving say 15K per year and towing maybe 1K of that, you only get that 50% increase in mileage on 8% of your driving, though. If you drive 15K per year and are towing, say 10K of it- now you're getting somewhere with that additional towing mileage.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by ependydad

The 2012 Rams were the last year that they didn't have DEF. I can't speak to EGRs, though.

The Rams introduced DEF in the 2013 model year.

Ep,

What year model is your Dodge? I have heard that the Dodge 6.7's got very poor mileage (unloaded, in particular) until they went to DEF. Maybe more regens eating up fuel? What was your experience?

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

Ep,

What year model is your Dodge? I have heard that the Dodge 6.7's got very poor mileage (unloaded, in particular) until they went to DEF. Maybe more regens eating up fuel? What was your experience?

2012. My fuel mileage isn't great - generally 12-13 around town. We've hit 14-15 on non-towing highway tanks but don't do them all that often. I have the 4.10 gears in mine; crew cab; long bed.