Towing over TV payload

[RPAspey]

dealers are salesmen.

they don't have your best interest in mind, only their wallets.

I stopped at a local dealer a few weeks back. The owner's son and I got to talking about weight limits of TV. He pointed to a 30+ foot 5th that I was looking at a few minutes earlier. He told me that it was indeed 1/2 ton towable although I pointed out the pin weight was 1200#. I asked about the weight ratings, if they ment anything to him. his comments were (I'm paraphrasing) "I'm tired of people coming in and worrying about the weight ratings. I lose a lot of sales because people worry about those numbers. They're just guidelines. If it feels ok it is ok. And his last comment was something like "I've never heard of a cop pulling a camper over due to weight." needless to say I knew I would never win that argument so I just walked away.

Bottom line, I bet 75% of campers are over loaded, and the same for TV.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by ChooChooMan74

I will know it on 9 days when I hit the scales. I am going to hit then as wet as possible to simulate the worst case. I feel that I am close if not a touch over my TV GVW... Yet got room in my tow capacity.

I was happy that we were embarking on a week-long trip instead of a weekend jaunt.

I know that I definitely want to re-weigh before one of our later trips, just to see how stuff accumulates in the camper over the season.

[Scratch]

Confession time: We traded our F-150 in January for an F250, then traded the Flagstaff 26WRB TT in early March on a 2013 Keystone Cougar 325RES. Towed the rig 200 miles in a headwind to Matagorda Bay, then back home and mentioned to DW that I felt we might be overmatched. We got home and I weighed the truck set up for camping with wife, (big) dog, 5er hitch and associated in-truck cargo. We were 450 lbs. over GVWR (10,450 vs. Ford's 10,000lb recommendation spec). The 5th wheel pin weight was 1545 and when we hooked it up unloaded/no water etc., we were way over GVWR and, more frighteningly, near rear axle GAWR. We were within GCWR by more than 2500 lbs.!

I called our RV dealer, mentioned the dilemma, and my concerns for the family's safety on the road. He asked us to stop in with the trailer and he sent his shop foreman with us to a scale. The weight ticket confirmed our fears and the owner stated they should have been more conscious of our truck as the 327RES is designed for an F350, or one ton truck equivalent. To our surprise, he took it back (fortunately it was not yet titled) and mentioned the Crusader as an alternative. Again, we hooked up for a test drive and weigh in. We were very pleased with the Crusader, weighed 1,500 lbs. lighter; 800lbs under GVWR and well under GAWR (the most critical spec IMO). We're happy and extremely fortunate that we have a good dealer. Although it is about 4' shorter, we like the Crusader every bit as much as we liked the Cougar and consider the Crusader to be of better build quality.

Bottom line is that we were able to tow the bigger rig, but I couldn't bear the thought of putting the DW and granddaughters in jeopardy.

Whew! We're extremely fortunate. Must admit I almost didn't call the dealer as I thought the fault was entirely ours. He subsequently said he called his sales staff in for a meeting and informed them to get smarter on matching TVs and TTs. They earned my business and recommendations, for sure...

[ependydad]

Scratch, name names! That's a heck of a stand-up dealer, imo.

[Auto4]

Manufactures are also responsible for misleading their customers. My first truck, a Toyota Tundra, was rated by the manufacturer to tow 10100 pounds. Being the uneducated buyer that i was I thought I could pull any trailer up to that weight. Needless to say I had no clue about payload capacities until I started reading this forum. However I don't blame anyone but my self for not being better educated.

[BOBFIDY]

Originally Posted by whj77372

Several years at the RV Boot Camp in Livingston, TX, the instructor indicated that studies reflect that upwards of 50% of RV are overloaded.

We were at the Escapees Bootcamp in Oct 2010 and I remember that seminar too....,..and it was a good place to take advantage of their SAFEWEIGH program and get each wheel weighed on the truck and on the trailer, and get a great explanation of how and why we needed to upgrade our truck.

[Scratch]

Originally Posted by ependydad

Scratch, name names! That's a heck of a stand-up dealer, imo.

@ependydad: Didn't want to push as it might sound as though I'm associated or affiliated with the dealer.

We're not affiliated by any means and when I called them back, I asked to work directly with the owner who is, perhaps, one of the most ethical business leaders I've come across.

The owner/president's name is Steve Spearing and the dealership is Crestview RV Superstore in Selma, TX. NOTE: There are two other Crestview RV dealerships; one in Buda, TX.; the other in Georgetown, TX. I cannot/will not speak for them and have no idea if they are managed similarly...

[wolfpack21643]

As a cop and someone who bought his first TT last spring I never gave two thoughts to tow capacity or anything like that. I always figured GVW and such was for the cops that work DOT type assignments full time. After I started reading this forum I woke up to the whole weight issue.

I live and patrol a 20 mile section of main hi-way that leads straight to one of the biggest resort areas on the east coast. So all last summer I would check out every RV rig I saw (which in summer is one every 5th car or so) just to see what people are using and to look at the pretty rigs.

I saw a lot of overloaded TV's on the road. I'm not saying that I would do it, but you guys that are overloaded need to keep this in mind, If your stopped by the law and the patrol officer goes past his reason for stop and starts doing the math and comes to the conclusion that you are over weight by a pound he can shut you down and keep you there until a TV with the proper GVW rating is summoned to pull your TT to a safe spot off the roadway.

I can assure you that wont be cheap and I belive no matter what kind of roadside insurance you have they wont cover it because it's your fault. There are several guys I work with who have bought TT as of late and they are starting to wake up to the weight issue. I feel it is just a matter of time before the tickets start flying in my area.

Our problem is we hate to do it but I would put a TV that is way over weight up there with DWI / DUI as far as damage it could do if you couldn't stop that rig in a timely manner. And if you are in an accident I know I will be checking the math and if your over then it's going in the report and your insurance will get the report.

I'm not trying to frighten anyone It's just how it is.

[thunderalley3]

When we were shopping for our work and play 30wr my wife and I were in another town and there was a dealer there so I said let's stop and browse and see what they have to say about them. They had one on the lot close to what we wanted and the salesman was sure he could get me the price I couldn't refuse and would buy it. I forgot to mention that day I was riding with my wife in her Nissan xterra instead of our 2500hd duramax. I was in a jovial mood and thought ,,hey,,maybe they will give me a deal to move it and I can live with what it is so I said give me the "out the door price" no haggle one shot deal. He said to give him 10 minutes to do some figuring and talk to the boss as he wanted to sell it.

Well the price was good, but I laughed at him until he told me to leave,,, he actually included in his pricing a hitch for my wife's xterra because he "was trained to see the whole picture" straight from his mouth and saw that our tow vehicle didn't have a receiver and we would need it to tow our new trailer. Yeah he was trained alright lol, he would have had to put dolly wheels on that receiver to keep the bumper off the ground,,that xterra would have been dragging. Even my wife made the statement to him that she knows that vehicle was not even close to meeting the requirements to tow that trailer, and his training was going to kill someone.

[SteveBingham52]

One problem I have run into is finding the actual number for GCWR. I have an F250 super duty diesel (2012) and have gotten different number from two dealers and from where I bought my camper. I have looked online and found a different number there. I just don't know which number to use.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by SteveBingham52

One problem I have run into is finding the actual number for GCWR. I have an F250 super duty diesel (2012) and have gotten different number from two dealers and from where I bought my camper. I have looked online and found a different number there. I just don't know which number to use.

I imagine Ford has something similar, but given a VIN- I contacted Chrysler about a used Ram. They were able to tell me the full builds sheet with gearing details. Using that, I was able to go to the Ram Body Builder guide and get the exact GCWR rating.

That said- you usually can't hit GCWR without exceeding GVWR. The GVWR is on a sticker on the doorjamb for 5 years or so now.

[sidney]

I agree... many folks are exceeding the GVWR of their TV... and I have a theory why.

It's not a big deal.

Don't get me wrong... obviously its not safe to tow grossly overweight and I am not condoning it... but hear me out.

1. There is no "standard procedure" set by any government agency for determining the GVWR. The manufacturers are free to use whatever method they want to set their ratings. IMO the manufacturer's GVWR is greatly influenced by actuary data to limit warranty claims and possible litigation.

2. Why does the total of the front and rear GAWR considerably exceed the GVWR? If you are not exceeding the front and rear GAWR how can you be over weight?

3. Why do some manufacturer's give separate 5th wheel towing weights? When you begin to reach the 5th wheel tow ratings you will be well over the TV GVWR. Here's an example:

2013 SIERRA 2500HD CC, SB, 4WD Duramax
5th wheel tow rating: 15,800 lbs
Max Payload: 2706 lbs

The pin weight of most 5th wheels is at least 20% of the GVW; 20% of 15,800 is 3,160 lbs... you are already 400 lbs over the max payload and you still haven't loaded the family or gear in the TV.

4. As has already been mentioned... most people do not research, study and understand payload, GVWR, GAWR etc. When purchasing a camper most only look at the "tow rating" of their vehicle and buy a camper within the limits. And I believe the TV manufacturer's are aware of this and do not expect the typical American consumer to look beyond the "tow rating" weight.

5. If... as most of us have already stated and believe... that a large percentage of folks are exceeding the GVWR when towing...

If it is critically dangerous then why aren't the highways leading to our National Parks littered with broke down campers and towing accidents?

We are still shopping for our first 5th wheel and my comments above are some of the things I have thought about while doing my "weight" research.

How many of you (if any) are using your GAWR to determine your payload capacity?

[grayfox]

FYI

CAT Scale

RV Camping & RV Lifestyle - Changin' Gears

[pvillebly]

GCWR is listed in the owners manual for my Chevy Trailblazer.

[wyo700]

Ya the gawr are usually never close but the gvwr isi get what your saying. I have a 2013 tundra my gvwr is 7200 pounds with my toy hauler hooked up I am at almost 7100 pounds but I am still about 500 pounds below the rawr and no where near the fawr. I am sure by the time I am fully loaded I will be right at gvwr and continue to be well under rawr.

[sidney]

Originally Posted by wolfpack21643

As a cop and someone who bought his first TT last spring I never gave two thoughts to tow capacity or anything like that. I always figured GVW and such was for the cops that work DOT type assignments full time. After I started reading this forum I woke up to the whole weight issue.

I live and patrol a 20 mile section of main hi-way that leads straight to one of the biggest resort areas on the east coast. So all last summer I would check out every RV rig I saw (which in summer is one every 5th car or so) just to see what people are using and to look at the pretty rigs.

I saw a lot of overloaded TV's on the road. I'm not saying that I would do it, but you guys that are overloaded need to keep this in mind, If your stopped by the law and the patrol officer goes past his reason for stop and starts doing the math and comes to the conclusion that you are over weight by a pound he can shut you down and keep you there until a TV with the proper GVW rating is summoned to pull your TT to a safe spot off the roadway.

I can assure you that wont be cheap and I belive no matter what kind of roadside insurance you have they wont cover it because it's your fault. There are several guys I work with who have bought TT as of late and they are starting to wake up to the weight issue. I feel it is just a matter of time before the tickets start flying in my area.


Our problem is we hate to do it but I would put a TV that is way over weight up there with DWI / DUI as far as damage it could do if you couldn't stop that rig in a timely manner. And if you are in an accident I know I will be checking the math and if your over then it's going in the report and your insurance will get the report.

I'm not trying to frighten anyone It's just how it is.

I'm curious... What local or state statute are you citing for being over GVWR? I believe there may be axle weight restrictions that can be cited if exceeded but I don't know if they're related to the stickers on the TV

[Oaklevel]

Originally Posted by sidney

I'm curious... What local or state statute are you citing for being over GVWR? I believe there may be axle weight restrictions that can be cited if exceeded but I don't know if they're related to the stickers on the TV

I have another question without taking a vehicle to a scale how are you (law enforcement) going to be able to prove that a vehicle is over weight not all law enforcement carries portable scales just because it looks like it is does not make it so....... there no requirement for a RV operator to carry a weight certificate................ My state trooper buddys have been told unless some is way off (speeding / reckless driving etc. ) to leave RVers alone state needs the tourist revenue................

[wolfpack21643]

Originally Posted by sidney

I'm curious... What local or state statute are you citing for being over GVWR? I believe there may be axle weight restrictions that can be cited if exceeded but I don't know if they're related to the stickers on the TV

In Maryland we have a statute for "operation of an unsafe vehicle" that is left up to the officers discretion. That would be one way and your county judge would make a judgment at trail time. I can tell you in my county as long as the officer was able to make a decent case based on his observations and math from the sticker on the door jamb the officer would most likely win the case. I cant say that for all judges but each county court is subject to how that judge see's the law.

I do know that I have seen DOT officers at accident scenes use the load numbers off the tires and such to look for an over weight trailer say. Also there is a whole section of the law book that just pertains to towing and such in Maryland. I don't have it with me right now (i'm off today) but I bet given a few mintues on an accident scene and I could come up with it.

I would most likely use the operation of an unsafe vehicle statute if I ever came across an accident where an over weight issue were at hand. Also you could charge with negligent driving which is kind of a catch all that covers "unsafe operation" of vehicles, and by someone driving in what the manufacture assigns as an over weight condition then you would meet that part of the law also.

In summary the "operation of an unsafe vehicle" charge would cover the registered weight of the vehicle part and the negligent charge would cover the part of a driver acutally towing the vehicle in what the sate has deemed unsafe. In Maryland they print your tow weights on your registration card so once you exceed that weight your toast.

[TURBS]

This thread right here should be stuck to the top of this towing section.


Turbs

[grayfox]

I'm not in law enforcement but, I think they would call for the portable scales.
They have these in many states.