Towing weight

[prof_fate]

Originally Posted by MGordyan

In my hunt for a trailer, it seemed that the dealers would show you the number that is within your limits. You need to do your do diligence to figure out the rest. Payload will be the first thing you run out of in a half-ton.

Not really...dealers lie. "sure your gtruck can tow 11000 lbs" and then you actually learn what that 11k means - no cargo, 150lb driver, no passengers, all the right options. It's a very optimistic figure. Then they go with the book weight on teh TT which is always below reality.

So they assume a low TT weight and a max TV rating...which gives you a 'credibility gap' to say the least!

They're concerned with moving units - whether you can tow it or not really isn't their concern. And car dealers aren't much better - if ANY truck can tow 20klbs most salesman think ALL trucks can two 20k lbs. Axle ratings, payload, CVWR, GCWR are gibberish to them and just get in the way of earning their commission.

[ependydad]

^^^ and that's why I wrote my "What can I tow?" page. Hoping to help a person or two...

I posted on another thread - I don't think all dealers and salepeople intentionally lie. My guess is that a large part of them don't know any better.

[Lynkage]

Originally Posted by herk7769

So....

Find a new dealer.

If he is lying to you BEFORE the sale; Just think of what your are going to get AFTER the sale...

Bingo!!

I would also tell them that they have lied to you!
Better safe than sorry!

[zs325RES]

I'm sure your FX4 is a pretty nice truck, but it's only a 1/2 ton.
Some other things that have not been discussed is - brakes, shocks, frame strength, engine/tranny fluid coolers... - it all adds up to capability.

Make deal on that Sabre, but beware of that dealer! - then go find a 3/4 ton.

[FandRChambers]

Interesting you posted this question. While on the way to pick up my 5th wheel I passed a guy towing a 5th wheel with a ford f150 eco boost. I thought it was way too much for his truck, but then again maybe he knew something I didn't.!

[prof_fate]

Originally Posted by ependydad

^^^ and that's why I wrote my "What can I tow?" page. Hoping to help a person or two...

I posted on another thread - I don't think all dealers and salepeople intentionally lie. My guess is that a large part of them don't know any better.

I don't know about that...when the folks have been in the biz for decades they should certainly know better!

My TT from FR said 'small suv towable'...technically, legally, that may be true - an empty trailer and empty tv. But in the real world? No way in hell is that feasible - and if its common knowledge, common sense here, they can't be THAT ignorant, can they?

I sold cars and worked in dealerships and there, yes, salespeople can indeed but that clueless. But RV dealers? I don't think so.

[Herk7769]

Here is my read on "Why Salesmen" lie:

1) They get paid on commission.

2) They don't work at any one dealership very long. RV salesmen turnover is the highest of all dealerships except small used car lots. There WILL BE no repeat sales FOR THEM.

Corollarys:

1) The bigger and more elaborate the camper they sell you; the more they make.

2) They want to be helpful by getting you into "The one you really want" (see Corollary 1)

3) The more options they add, (see Corollary 1)

4) Selling one that is on the lot carries a higher commission; AND you get to see what you are buying - this is much easier to sell. (see Corollary 1)


Whether you can tow it or not is your problem. Selling you a smaller more appropriate camper will violate Corollary 1.

Same with Truck Salesmen.

They get their commission when you sign. They don't care a hoot whether you ever make the first payment.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by FandRChambers

Interesting you posted this question. While on the way to pick up my 5th wheel I passed a guy towing a 5th wheel with a ford f150 eco boost. I thought it was way too much for his truck, but then again maybe he knew something I didn't.!

Well, there is a lot of difference in power and where that power is made in the RPM range between a 5.4 and an Ecoboost. There are many 5ers that I would feel comfortable towing with an EB F150, but not one with a 2K pin weight. IMHO, the weight when towing a TT or 5er is not as much of an issue as the wind resistance; at least where engine power is concerned. I can haul a load of sakrete on a lowboy trailer that weighs 10K and it will pull MUCH easier than a 25' TT at 5K. I actually noticed very little difference in how hard it was to tow when going from a 4K to a 7K trailer. More sway, but the wind resistance at 65 was still the major factor in how hard my truck had to work. Most vehicles have frontal area considerations that we often fail to mention here on the forums. This is particularly important for those towing with anything less than a 1/2 ton truck. I know in the Ford lit I've seen, pretty much all SUVs, except maybe the Expedition(speaking of new, not older like Excursions), recommend NOT towing something with as much frontal area as a trailer has. Hard to read, but copied from the 2011 RV and Towing Guide:

Mustang 20 sq. ft. All Applications
Taurus/MKS 30 sq. ft. All Applications
Edge/MKX 30 sq. ft. All Applications
Escape/Escape Hybrid Base Vehicle Frontal Area (24 sq. ft.) 2.5L I4 Engine or 2.5L Hybrid
Mariner/Mariner Hybrid 30 sq. ft. 3.0L V6 Engine
Flex/MKT 25 sq. ft. Without Trailer Tow Package Class III
35 sq. ft. With Trailer Tow Package Class III
Explorer Base Vehicle Frontal Area (20 sq. ft.) Without Trailer Tow Package Class III
40 sq. ft. With Trailer Tow Package Class III
Ranger Base Vehicle Frontal Area 2.3L I4 Engine
50 sq. ft. 4.0L V6 Engine
E-Series 60 sq. ft. All Applications
F-150 Base Vehicle Frontal Area Without Trailer Tow Package
60 sq. ft. With Trailer Tow Package or Max Trailer Tow Package
Expedition/Navigator Base Vehicle Frontal Area (35 sq. ft.) 5.4L V8 Engine Without Heavy-Duty Trailer Tow Package
60 sq. ft. 5.4L V8 With Heavy-Duty Trailer Tow Package
F-250/F-350/F-450/F-550 Super Duty 60 sq. ft. All Applications


Of course, based upon this, not even an F-550 should be towing a 5er, so take it with a grain of salt, I guess.

[FandRChambers]

Yea I learned there is a lot to consider with tow vehicles. My first tow vehicle was a chevy escalade. Yea very nice vehicle, but not made for towing! The more I learned and the more I camped, I knew the escalade had to go.

[myredracer]

Did you look for the "1/2 ton towable" sticker? That'd make it all good. Maybe they could even add one for you?

I now know that stickers on door jambs don't necessarily mean a lot (except GVWR and axle ratings do). Our F250 is supposed to have a max. payload of 2800 lbs but after being to the scales, the actual available payload is 1800 lbs.

It sure pays to do your due diligence in case you back yourself into a corner from buying the wrong thing.

[bakken]

Originally Posted by Buddy231

I have never had a trailer (5th wheel), this will be my first experience towing and using a travel camper.

In that case, you sure don't want to start with an unsafe outfit.
If I may be so bold, do you really need a fifth wheel that large? I think many people fall in love with these large, and yes very nice, campers, but don't consider any of the drawbacks.
Even with our 31-foot Flagstaff, there are many campgrounds we cannot get into. Sometimes I wish we had a smaller unit.
We would have liked to get a larger camper, but realised that for our purposes, it was silly. But maybe you have children, and need the extra space?
So, if you need a camper that big, a 3/4 ton is a must, and a bigger engine would be recommended. Doesn't have to be a diesel, although that would probably be a good choice.
Don't be discouraged by all of the caution people are expressing here, as we simply want to keep you and your family safe.

[Platokidd]

Just wonder what you guys think...
I have a 09 chevy 2500 hd 4x4. rated 9900 lbs.
My unit dry weight is 8250 lbs. Im guessing that with the limited cargo I have in it and the unknown Im probably around 9200 lbs.
I have a oil and trans cooler. coolant temp has yet to get over 194 according to my reader plugged in not the gauge. All I have done so for is very short trips. No express way yet and it handles great so far.
To some it up I feel Im at the max safe towing.
Dumb question... How do I go about having it scaled for lbs. ??
Just go there on the interstate?? Could they write me a ticket if I was over??
Looking for feed back and thanks.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by FandRChambers

Yea I learned there is a lot to consider with tow vehicles. My first tow vehicle was a chevy escalade. Yea very nice vehicle, but not made for towing! The more I learned and the more I camped, I knew the escalade had to go.

Chevy Escalade? Maybe Cadillac?

[Scratch]

Originally Posted by platokidd

Just wonder what you guys think...
I have a 09 chevy 2500 hd 4x4. rated 9900 lbs.
My unit dry weight is 8250 lbs. Im guessing that with the limited cargo I have in it and the unknown Im probably around 9200 lbs.
I have a oil and trans cooler. coolant temp has yet to get over 194 according to my reader plugged in not the gauge. All I have done so for is very short trips. No express way yet and it handles great so far.
To some it up I feel Im at the max safe towing.
Dumb question... How do I go about having it scaled for lbs. ??
Just go there on the interstate?? Could they write me a ticket if I was over??
Looking for feed back and thanks.

Here ya go: CAT Scale Locator | CAT Scale

[FandRChambers]

Oops typo...yes Caddilac Escalade

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by Scratch

Here ya go: CAT Scale Locator | CAT Scale

The cat scale folks don't care what you weigh. Having the weight ticket (showing "in limits") could get you out of one if stopped "for looking overloaded."

For a 5th wheel it is easy.

1) Loaded as you would for camping, with a full tank of gas and your family aboard...

2) Pull up and onto scale pulling all the way forward placing your front wheels on the small leading scale plate.

3) Get out and make sure your rear axle is on the second plate and the camper's wheels are on the third plate.

4) Use a yard stick to reach up and push the "press to talk" button (or call them with your cell phone) to get your initial weight and tell them you will need a second "reweigh."

5) Drive to the parking area and drop the camper.

6) Drive back onto the scale and putting the truck exactly where it was before; press the button and get your second weight.

7) Go hook up your camper and go to the shack to get your weight tickets.

8) the first weigh is 10 bucks; the second is 1 dollar.

treat your family to dinner and figure out the data.
My tickets for a previous camping trip are attached.

If you subtract the truck alone weight from the combined weight you will get your true camper weight. (Compare to the camper's GVWR to make sure the camper is not overloaded)

Add the truck axles (connected) together and subtract the disconnected truck weight to get your true pin weight.

Add the truck axles (loaded) and compare to your trucks max gross weight (GVWR) to make sure the truck is not overloaded.

Compare the connected combined weight to your truck's maximum combined weight (GCWR) to make sure your truck can pull the combination.

[Platokidd]

Originally Posted by herk7769

The cat scale folks don't care what you weigh. Having the weight ticket (showing "in limits") could get you out of one if stopped "for looking overloaded."

For a 5th wheel it is easy.

1) Loaded as you would for camping, with a full tank of gas and your family aboard...

2) Pull up and onto scale pulling all the way forward placing your front wheels on the small leading scale plate.

3) Get out and make sure your rear axle is on the second plate and the camper's wheels are on the third plate.

4) Use a yard stick to reach up and push the "press to talk" button (or call them with your cell phone) to get your initial weight and tell them you will need a second "reweigh."

5) Drive to the parking area and drop the camper.

6) Drive back onto the scale and putting the truck exactly where it was before; press the button and get your second weight.

7) Go hook up your camper and go to the shack to get your weight tickets.

8) the first weigh is 10 bucks; the second is 1 dollar.

treat your family to dinner and figure out the data.
My tickets for a previous camping trip are attached.

If you subtract the truck alone weight from the combined weight you will get your true camper weight. (Compare to the camper's GVWR to make sure the camper is not overloaded)

Add the truck axles (connected) together and subtract the disconnected truck weight to get your true pin weight.

Add the truck axles (loaded) and compare to your trucks max gross weight (GVWR) to make sure the truck is not overloaded.

Compare the connected combined weight to your truck's maximum combined weight (GCWR) to make sure your truck can pull the combination.

Thanks Lou,
1/2 hour away from the house is a scale. Going to head there next Friday before we head to camp. Oh and that will be 3 weekends in row.

[rockwood06]

I have learn a lot here about 5th wheels campers and 1/2 ton trucks and all of the nembers that go a long with it, from curb weight to full load weight and it will screw your head up, and this the way i try to put it all together.

First off a 1/2 ton truck is not made to tow a standard 5th wheel....read the back of your book that came with the truck.

Now,trucks have a tow rating and a payload rating:

TOW RATING is the weight that the truck can tow behine it, PAYLOAD rating is the weight that the truck can carry (inside and/or in the bed of the truck).

My truck is a 2008 chevy Vortexmax 1/2 ton pick up with a 6.0 gas engine a 4:10 rear, 4 speed heavy duty automatic transmission and is equip with the heavy duty tow package....the TOW RATING for the truck is 10,500 lbs.....But the PAYLOAD is only 1,300 lbs. Now the reason i brought this up is because in 2008 the way my truck is equip it is the only 1/2 ton for 2008 that is rated to tow a 5th wheel according to the book that came with the truck It has been hard to fine a 5th wheel that would even come close to tow until last year.

I came accross a 5th wheel that is called a "LIGHT" by Open Range, it is 31' long with 3 slide outs and full load weight is 9,995 lbs (which will never be fully loaded) and a pin wieght of 1,240 lbs. I have no problem at all with the weight or power from my truck. I still have a bow in my springs when i am hooked up.

Now from what i understand other manufactures are making "LIGHT" 5th wheels as well because of 1/2 ton trucks, but the trucks need the heavy duty equipment.....I guess they could be call a "Heavy duty 1/2 ton" as they once where.

[BarryD0706]

So you're 60# below your payload. But that's before you put the 5th wheel hitch in the bed, or any passengers inside. (I'll assume you don't carry anything in the bed.)

What about rear axle GAWR? How are you on that?

[TURBS]

Pin weight is the weight as it leaves the factory.

It goes up even more for dealer add ons.

It goes even higher after you load your camper ready for camping.

I'm guessing your way over on ccc.