Towing with E30 or E85?

[babock]

Originally Posted by North to Alaska

Have you tried it?
Power should actually increase.
I'm curious about the net fuel economy loss while pulling.

Yep power will increase. Lots of studies on that. Problem is the drop in fuel economy is worse than the difference in price of the fuel.


I would hate the range hit more than the price difference.



The BTU content has nothing to do with the power since you are flowing way more fuel with E85. Since E85 has a different stoichiometric ratio than gasoline, the airflow doesn't need to change much with the added flow of fuel.

Originally Posted by North to Alaska

The engines that get the biggest boost are turbo engines like the ecoboost.

Of course the 3.5L ecoboost in my F-150 does not allow E85 so I can't use it even if I wanted to.

[North to Alaska]

Originally Posted by Mad Cow

The MPG difference is not really relevant unless the price is equal. It all depends on price spread. One needs to look at cost per mile. One can get 5 MPG less on E85 and still be at a lower cost per mile.

Modern ECM controlled engines vary timing during operation. The significantly higher octane rating of E85 allows an engine to use most advanced timing in the ECM map for maximum engine performance. That does not mean more power, just maximum designed performance.

I have used E85 probably 75% of the time over the last 8 years. Right now the price spread is not good enough to justify E85. E20, E30, and E50, right on the edge.

Seems E85 has an edge at higher elevations, in my experience. MPG hit spread from regular does not seem as bad. I attribute that to higher oxygen content of E85, but no real data to back that up.

I agree with you on the price vs mpg.
You are the first person who has replied that has an understanding of the qualities of ethanol.

I agree that ethanol will not create more horsepower and torque than what the engine is capable of. But it can enable it to achieve that power.

When towing, the engine has to work harder, transmission has to shift down more often.
It is said that lower gear ratios under normal driving conditions will give less gas mileage but under heavy towing, it could give you better gas mileage. Why? Because the engine doesn't have to work as hard...lower rpms. (unless you are driving at higher speeds)
If higher ethanol blends can allow for higher torque/horsepower, then could that not also apply to this same scenario?
Which is why I am curious if anyone has compared towing experience.

[North to Alaska]

Originally Posted by babock

Yep power will increase. Lots of studies on that. Problem is the drop in fuel economy is worse than the difference in price of the fuel.


I would hate the range hit more than the price difference.



The BTU content has nothing to do with the power since you are flowing way more fuel with E85. Since E85 has a different stoichiometric ratio than gasoline, the airflow doesn't need to change much with the added flow of fuel.


Of course the 3.5L ecoboost in my F-150 does not allow E85 so I can't use it even if I wanted to.

Another good response. Thank you.

Under heavy load, an engine running on pure gasoline will have to run at higher rpms to achieve the torque required. But higher blends of ethanol (because of timing advance, oxygen content, and cooling effect of the vaporizing of the fuel) will allow the engine to run at lower rpms to achieve the torque required to pull the load.
More fuel is required with ethanol in each cylinder firing....but since lower rpms, less cylinder firings are required.

In the real world however....

[Iwannacamp]

Back in the day race cars made more power on alcohol or some blend of.... I guess you just forced more in there. It was a PIB to run.

[North to Alaska]

Scroll down to post #34
He apparently got better mileage with his f150 5.0l when he used E85 while pulling
https://www.f150forum.com/f70/5-0-l-...176544/index4/

[rlh1957]

Do Not Use these fuels unless your vehicle is designed and stated in the owners manual and on the cap fill area that it is recommended.
These fuels Do Not provide more power... the government scientists objective was to have a fuel with less emissions, power output or increase was Not an objective. Run E85 or E30 in engines and fuel systems that are not designed for it can ruin your fuel system, carburetors and injections systems. The vehicles are know and labeled as Flex-Fuel. These fuels contain ethanol which contains water... key word is water here. Alcohol burns cleaner but not with as my BTU's and power output at combustion.
We live in a free society and everyone is still Free to make their own choices and run what they like. Even the gassers that decide to try some diesel in their gas engines!

[North to Alaska]

Originally Posted by rlh1957

Do Not Use these fuels unless your vehicle is designed and stated in the owners manual and on the cap fill area that it is recommended.
These fuels Do Not provide more power... the government scientists objective was to have a fuel with less emissions, power output or increase was Not an objective. Run E85 or E30 in engines and fuel systems that are not designed for it can ruin your fuel system, carburetors and injections systems. The vehicles are know and labeled as Flex-Fuel. These fuels contain ethanol which contains water... key word is water here. Alcohol burns cleaner but not with as my BTU's and power output at combustion.
We live in a free society and everyone is still Free to make their own choices and run what they like. Even the gassers that decide to try some diesel in their gas engines!

I don't advocate using it in anything but a flex fuel.
But dyno tests and experience show that you will have more power if you have variable valve timing.
Some more than others depending on compression ratio. Tbe higher the compression ratio the more the engine can utilize the advance timing.

[North to Alaska]

Scroll about half way down on this thread. Gentleman gets considerably more power using e85. Gas mileage loss under normal driving us about 20%. But while towing his loss is about 15%.

https://community.lanceowners.org/to...35450162846910

[North to Alaska]

Originally Posted by rlh1957

We live in a free society and everyone is still Free to make their own choices and run what they like. Even the gassers that decide to try some diesel in their gas engines!

No we don't live in a free country and we can't choose to put what we want in.
For over a century we were mandated to use only oil based gasoline. Use ethanol and you could be fined thousands of dollars. Even now we are only "allowed" certain blends.

I didn't come here to argue the merits of ethanol. I was asking a simple question to those who used higher ethanol blends what their mileage is compared to regular while towing.

Sheeeesh

[Hersbird]

E85 may have a lower energy content but it has a much higher octane. So IF the motor is setup to run an e85 tune it certainly will make more power because it can run more boost and timing without preignition. You do have to feed a much greater quantity of the fuel to get even the same power let alone the increased power so most will never use it. On a standard motor not built to take advantage of the extra octane the power increase will be almost unnoticeable except by accurate timing devices, say the timing lights at a drag strip it might pick up a tenth of a second in the 1/4 mile. Where fuel economy doesn't matter it is the ticket to the fastest 1/4 mile times.

[North to Alaska]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

E85 may have a lower energy content but it has a much higher octane. So IF the motor is setup to run an e85 tune it certainly will make more power because it can run more boost and timing without preignition. You do have to feed a much greater quantity of the fuel to get even the same power let alone the increased power so most will never use it. On a standard motor not built to take advantage of the extra octane the power increase will be almost unnoticeable except by accurate timing devices, say the timing lights at a drag strip it might pick up a tenth of a second in the 1/4 mile. Where fuel economy doesn't matter it is the ticket to the fastest 1/4 mile times.

I understand that a tune may be necessary...but for a non-flex fuel engine. Flex fuel engines have a sensor that detects the ethanol % and adjust accordingly.

Here is a base 5.3l Silverado engine tested on a dyno by lingenfelter. This is prior to any tuning.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2013/07/...no-with-video/

"When running on 93-octane fuel with 9 percent ethanol, the L83 was good for 307 horsepower at 5200 RPM, and 332 lb-ft of torque at 4200 RPM. But when running on a blend of E85 and gasoline, those numbers climbed to 321 horses and 355 lb-ft of torque — all using the standard 6L80E gearbox. Expectedly, the E85 blend gave the truck quicker 0-60 and quarter mile times."

Edit: that was with 93 octane as a base line. How poor of a horsepower/torque would it have gotten with 87 octane?

[PenJoe]

Originally Posted by North to Alaska

Please note my previous post with attached documents includes dyno tests.
Curious, were the times you used it while towing?
What year and vehicle?
Thanks

2013 Silverado 1500 with tow package and flex fuel. Knowing of the fuel efficiency downside, we refrained from using E85 when towing, nor was it readily available long haul. We towed a 16' tandem axle 7,000# cargo trailer between WI and FL. Locally, a 18.5' Crestliner boat. For our driving conditions, any extra power boost would have been negligible.

Fuel efficiency towing with E15 averages 9 mpg no matter if is the cargo trailer, boat and trailer, or flat bed utility with grated loading tilt-up loading ramp. Running empty, it runs 17-22 mpg, depending on road/travel conditions using E15 or E85.

[North to Alaska]

Originally Posted by PenJoe

2013 Silverado 1500 with tow package and flex fuel. Knowing of the fuel efficiency downside, we refrained from using E85 when towing, nor was it readily available long haul. We towed a 16' tandem axle 7,000# cargo trailer between WI and FL. Locally, a 18.5' Crestliner boat. For our driving conditions, any extra power boost would have been negligible.

Fuel efficiency towing with E15 averages 9 mpg no matter if is the cargo trailer, boat and trailer, or flat bed utility with grated loading tilt-up loading ramp. Running empty, it runs 17-22 mpg, depending on road/travel conditions using E15 or E85.

Thank you👍

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by North to Alaska

I understand that a tune may be necessary...but for a non-flex fuel engine. Flex fuel engines have a sensor that detects the ethanol % and adjust accordingly.

Here is a base 5.3l Silverado engine tested on a dyno by lingenfelter. This is prior to any tuning.

2014 Silverado Dyno'ed With Impressive Results | GM Authority

"When running on 93-octane fuel with 9 percent ethanol, the L83 was good for 307 horsepower at 5200 RPM, and 332 lb-ft of torque at 4200 RPM. But when running on a blend of E85 and gasoline, those numbers climbed to 321 horses and 355 lb-ft of torque — all using the standard 6L80E gearbox. Expectedly, the E85 blend gave the truck quicker 0-60 and quarter mile times."

Edit: that was with 93 octane as a base line. How poor of a horsepower/torque would it have gotten with 87 octane?

Right, this is exactly the thing I was talking about, the motor has a tune built in for both. It would be even better if the motor was designed from the ground up to run E85 (lots of compression and cam timing) as some race engines are but then you would be screwed trying to travel as you can't get e85 everywhere and the e15 even 91 octane wouldn't be good enough.

So the 5.3 makes more power with the e85 by changing timing, but it also has to increase the injector cycle therefore using more fuel.