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Old 03-28-2011, 12:22 PM   #21
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Most of time I tow it alone no pets,kids or firewood (cant haul across county lines ash bore)and the wife usually follows in the car I dont have time to camp more than 2 or 3 times a year. I time about 8miles away the other about 50miles then its up in the air if we go again. But I am still in the market for F250 than I wont have to worry then.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by prof_fate View Post

Bigger rims lower the tow rating (cause the lower the load rating).
Not necessarily. That's a case by case basis, determined by the rims. Check out the 22" Alcoas, that blows your statement out of the water. Most trucks are coming with 18" rims, so you're saying if you dropped them down to a 15" or 16" rim my towing capacity would simply go up? Not true.

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4x4 will lower tow rating (more weight on tow vehicle),
On every mfg specs I've ever looked at, 4x4 is already accounted for. The advertising specs the mfgs spout are always their 2wd, standard cab, Long wheelbase, with their biggest engine configuration (of course they don't tell you that up front).

Quote:
"trailer frontal area not to exceed 60 sf"
In all my years of towing and dealing with trailers, I've never ever heard of that term. Where are you seeing that?

Quote:
Since the expy is F150 based i'd imagine it's about the same for you truck.
Actually I bet the expedition has a good deal lower tow rating. The SUV's usually have lighter suspension (need a cushy ride for all the soccer moms) and they weigh more (full body) from the get go so you also loose payload.
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by herk7769 View Post

I apologize if I've gone into more detail than you wanted.

*************************

So if you made it this far; drag must be overcome with engine power delivered to the drive wheels, so fuel economy and towing performance is based on:

Pointy is good; blunt is bad
Slow is good; fast is bad
Smaller cross section is good; tall and wide is bad
I've seen the cd figure for cars over the years. Never quite got where/ how it was derived. I like how it can be related to weight! I also never gave it any thought that the drag cd would change with speed - when I see it quoted with a car they don't mention at what speed it might have been measure/calculated at.

I know wind resistance is logarhithmic (sp?) - double speed and resistance quadruples.
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caleb View Post
Most trucks are coming with 18" rims, so you're saying if you dropped them down to a 15" or 16" rim my towing capacity would simply go up? Not true.
The tow rating of a truck is set in stone by the manufacture.......but, in going to a bigger wheel is going to make the engine work harder due to the increased power needed to pull a bigger wheel. Decreasing the wheel size over the standard wheel will give the engine a little reprieve, but it will not raise the tow rating set by the manufacture......just like adding airbags does not increase the manufacturers hauling capacity.

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Originally Posted by caleb View Post
On every mfg specs I've ever looked at, 4x4 is already accounted for. The advertising specs the mfgs spout are always their 2wd, standard cab, Long wheelbase, with their biggest engine configuration (of course they don't tell you that up front).
With the stats that I have seen, those maximum tow ratings advertised are for 4x2s, most powerful engine, and lowest gear ratio. a 4x4 usually lists a couple hundred pounds less for their tow rating.

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Originally Posted by caleb View Post
In all my years of towing and dealing with trailers, I've never ever heard of that term. Where are you seeing that?
. (Referring to frontal area)

I have seen the square footage frontal area listed many times as a footnote to tow ratings. I have always wondered if that notation was intended for just the area outside of the truck slipstream, of if that was total for the trailer......I never saw where that was explained.

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Originally Posted by caleb View Post
Actually I bet the expedition has a good deal lower tow rating. The SUV's usually have lighter suspension (need a cushy ride for all the soccer moms) and they weigh more (full body) from the get go so you also loose payload.
Many times, that is the case.
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caleb View Post
Not necessarily. That's a case by case basis, determined by the rims. Check out the 22" Alcoas, that blows your statement out of the water. Most trucks are coming with 18" rims, so you're saying if you dropped them down to a 15" or 16" rim my towing capacity would simply go up? Not true.
True. Has nothing to do with the rim but with the tire - less sidewall height. You can get higher rated tires (or lower ones). My expy currently has 10 ply loadf range E michelin atx tires on it - rides like a kids little red wagon but it they have load capacity out the wazoo (3195 lbs each).
For more info on load range
Tire Tech Information - Load Range/Ply Rating Identification

And I'm just quoting the Ford Owners Manual - no doubt based on factory tires.


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Originally Posted by caleb View Post
On every mfg specs I've ever looked at, 4x4 is already accounted for. The advertising specs the mfgs spout are always their 2wd, standard cab, Long wheelbase, with their biggest engine configuration (of course they don't tell you that up front).
Again, just reading from the manual.

There is a chart on pages 160-161. A sampling of what it says:

2WD
Engine . Axle Ratio .. Tire Size... Max GCWR... Trailer Weight
4.6L ..... 3.31 .............. 16 .........11,000.......... 5900
5.4 ....... 3.31 ..............16......... 12,000.......... 6800
5.4 ....... 3.55 ............ 17 ......... 13,000 ......... 7800
5.4 ........ 3.73 ............ 17.......... 13,500 .......... 8300

4x4 chart is on the second page. There is no 3.73 gear option.
4.6L......... 3.55 .......... 16 .......... 11,500 ..........6000
4.6L ........ 3.55 .......... 17 ........... 11,000 ........ 5500 *bigger rim, less weight.
5.4L ........ 3.31 ...........16 ............12,000 ......... 6400 *400# less than a 2WD w/ same axle, engine, rims
5.4L ........ 3.55 ...........16 ........... 13,000 ........... 7400
5.4L ........ 3.55 .......... 17 ........... 12,500 ........... 6900 *500# less for the larger rim size

And the last line in the chart says
"Maximum frontal area of trailer is 5.6 square meters (60 square feet)"

Quote:
Originally Posted by caleb View Post
Actually I bet the expedition has a good deal lower tow rating. The SUV's usually have lighter suspension (need a cushy ride for all the soccer moms) and they weigh more (full body) from the get go so you also loose payload.
That would be my guess as well but you never know.

2011 Ford Expedition | View Towing Specifications | Ford.com has the 2011 expy specs (but not in the detail that the owners manual has). The 4x4 loses 200lbs of towing capacity vs the 2wd where my 2001 loses 400...have things lightened up that much? The newer model can tow 1200# more too (more hp/ torque?)

The F150 2011 Ford F-150 | View Towing Specifications | Ford.com loses 300# of towing with the addition of four wheel drive.

If we look at the expy EL 4x4 3.73 (long wb) w/ tow package it's GCWR is 15,000lbs with a tow rating of 8700 (it's 300# more on the short WB)

The F150 super crew 157" wb has a GCWR of 14900 with a tow rating of 9300 lbs. Pretty close if you ask me. I also figure you're more likely to load the truck bed than the back of the SUV (or add a tonneu cover or cap). This F150 has a longer Wb which helps with stability but if it's your daily driver or you have a family then there's a loss in utility perhaps.
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:45 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by mtnguy View Post
The tow rating of a truck is set in stone by the manufacture.......but, in going to a bigger wheel is going to make the engine work harder due to the increased power needed to pull a bigger wheel. Decreasing the wheel size over the standard wheel will give the engine a little reprieve, but it will not raise the tow rating set by the manufacture......just like adding airbags does not increase the manufacturers hauling capacity.
For the most part that was my point, however I think you're confusing wheels with tires. A bigger wheel and the same size (height) tire will be much lighter than a smaller wheel with the same height tire. The rubber weighs a lot.


Quote:
With the stats that I have seen, those maximum tow ratings advertised are for 4x2s, most powerful engine, and lowest gear ratio. a 4x4 usually lists a couple hundred pounds less for their tow rating.
My point exactly. Mfgs take the most ideal towing truck and use that for their advertising.

Quote:
. (Referring to frontal area)

I have seen the square footage frontal area listed many times as a footnote to tow ratings. I have always wondered if that notation was intended for just the area outside of the truck slipstream, of if that was total for the trailer......I never saw where that was explained.
I know what it was referring to, I had just never seen it used. I also fully understand how drag relates to towing, but again, I've never seen it referred to when it comes to towing capacity.
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:49 PM   #27
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It will be interesting to see how the new towing standards will affect all these numbers and ratings.
Tow Ratings Finally Pass the Sniff Test - The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) - Automobile Magazine
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:53 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by prof_fate View Post
I've seen the cd figure for cars over the years. Never quite got where/ how it was derived. I like how it can be related to weight! I also never gave it any thought that the drag cd would change with speed - when I see it quoted with a car they don't mention at what speed it might have been measure/calculated at.

I know wind resistance is logarhithmic (sp?) - double speed and resistance quadruples.
Interesting, saw another post how the average mpg decreased in flat land with faster towing vs hilly areas and slower speed. Makes sense.

Back to lurking.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by prof_fate View Post
I know wind resistance is logarhithmic (sp?) - double speed and resistance quadruples.
I believe the expression you are looking for is "exponential."
The drag increases by the square of the velocity.

If x= the drag at speed y
then the drag at 2Y will be 2*2 x or 4 times the drag

The drag a 3y will be 3*3 x or 9 times drag.
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:13 PM   #30
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Have a question,I am looking at upgrading to a different camper and I am looking at a Rockwood Signature Ultra Lite 8313ss I was wondering if this was to much camper.Previous owner said they pulled with f150 all over (Bristol race) My truck is a 2004 f150 fx4 4 door ext cab gvwr 7150 front gawr 3750 back 3850 wb 133 has 5.5 bed 3.73 axle which I got from owners manual along with 13000 towing cap including truck wt. I do have after market brake control and thinking of adding air assist. The camper has a hitch wt. of 730 dry wt 6204 which I know doesnt really matter because I would be loading camper with supplies,It has gvwr of 7730 camper has wt distrubuiton and sway control hitch .I would be towing it in Ohio (flat land) and we usaully stay within 3 hr drive of home and camp about 4 times a year. I am in the market for F250 but they are hard to find for the right $ and condition.Does anyone have any thoughts?
We've been planning to order a 2012 Windjammer 3008 for a couple of months now (finally ordered today), but our tow vehicle was a 2007 F150 Supercrew 4x4, with the 5.4L, 3:73, and rated to tow 9200 lbs. But, I was not comfortable pushing my payload limit considering the 742 dry tongue weight. Even with our WDH, by the time I added up the hitch weight for a fully loaded trailer, passengers, full tank of gas, and cargo in the bed, we would have been over payload capacity pretty substantially. I, like you, decide to upgrade the TV and I began an exhaustive search for new TV and ultimetely decided a V10 F250 was what I wanted. Took a while, but I finally found a 2008 fully loaded F250 4x4 XLT with 32k miles, and I got it for just under $27k. Had to drive 5 hours out of state one way to get it, but picked it up yesterday, and it was well worth the 10 hour trip. Good luck with your search, just be patient, and the right truck will come along.
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