TV blues

[MillerTime]

Couple things.....
First- i just sold my '05 dmax with 134,000 miles. Was a good truck, got warm once about 3 years ago and installed new OEM thermostats and new OEM fan cluch. I also always changed my air, fuel and spin on tranny filter right around 5,000 miles. Didnt cost that much and im very anal about maintenance and working at dealerships all the filters were about $100. Had current flashes on all the ecm's and did the water pump about 2 months ago. When i listed it for sale at a grand over book my phone blew up with interest.
2nd--- after working in a shop for years (on commission ) labor rates are reflective of the cost of everything else these days. And my scanner was about $4,800 and requires updates twice a year at a little over $600 each unless they have a promo. Add the laptop and interface cables, subscriptions to every manuf. That you work on so you can program computers and your looking at major $$$$. Plus all the specialized tools that are only used every once in a while and continued training that is required.......plus Insurance.....and rent and...then someone screws something up occasionally.
Dont get me wrong, i do very well, but you get what you pay for these days. Ol' jim bob's garage might throw a bunch of parts at something trying to fix it, and it cost you $6-700 and still not right, but a little better, where if you took it to the dealer, you might be out $150-250 because there was an updated flash that will fix it.
.....just sayin'.......rant on guys!

[MillerTime]

Sorry about your luck op. Not knowing the history of your truck, you would probably be wise to do everything at once. I was fortunate enough to have all the prior history of my '05 since it was serviced at the dealer i worked at, and then also had impeccable maintenance and records kept of it for the 7+ years i had it.
I'll say the '05 was good but the 06 and 07 were the best, of course the current is pretty good too, but they dont give them away

[bob caldwell]

If you have pride in your work...and knowledge, can be fixed in hell or where-ever....building doesn't make a mechanic. Electronics has just made lazy people lazier.

[Kenny kustom]

Originally Posted by bob caldwell

If you have pride in your work...and knowledge, can be fixed in hell or where-ever....building doesn't make a mechanic. Electronics has just made lazy people lazier.

Nope.
Not when that shifting problem is only a simple flash to fix.
If you don't have the scanner to flash it, no matter how many parts billy Bob throws at it, it ain't gonna be fixed.


2008 F350 CCSB V10
2016 Sabre 36QBOK

[drittal]

on the other side of the coin, if it doesnt throw a code nowadays there is nothing they will do for you.

[MillerTime]

Originally Posted by drittal

on the other side of the coin, if it doesnt throw a code nowadays there is nothing they will do for you.

Maybe the guy at O'Reillys.
You can look at your data stream and look at parameters and voltage to see where a problem lies.
You cant fix a computer unless you have a screen or another computer to look at it. And these days there maybe 1 to 2 dozen computers on a vehicle.
To achieve everything that epa wants, and have reliability, you have to have everything ran just perfect to achieve clean fuel mileage and computers are they only way they are achieving it.

[bob caldwell]

Your both right....nobody wants to hook a gauge up anymore, just plug er in!

[MillerTime]

Originally Posted by bob caldwell

If you have pride in your work...and knowledge, can be fixed in hell or where-ever....building doesn't make a mechanic. Electronics has just made lazy people lazier.

Lazy....Not really, just takes some of the "knuckle draggers" or "red necks" out of the equation.
Electronics help me work SMARTER, instead of working harder and not achieving a dang thing.
But im also half the age of alot on here, so I've grown up with the technology and use it as it comes out.
And sorry, but for what the OP is having done, its happening IN a shop, not under a tree. And the "building making a mechanic"..... i have no idea where that came from. A service truck or shop, it cost money to operate.

[mud yapster]

Well after reading this entire thread and upgraded my TV from a 2001 F350 7.3L that had 133,000 miles and no major issues in its use of towing. I hope my new 2015 Ram 3500 6.7L is as issue free. It tows my 18,000 lb. 5er a lot better and I did get the Aisis tranny that I'm not that impressed with yet but it's nicer than my old 4R100 was.
OP I wish you the best of luck with the rebuild.
For the other fellows, tools aren't cheep and I have a bunch of them and most are specialized tool and meters and I charge a usage fee for them. Commercial and Industrial Air Conditioning. If you think auto mechanics charge a lot call me and you'll think they are cheeply price. Commercial A/C is high tech also. LOL

[bob caldwell]

Learn the trade, I worked in a few dealerships to get knowledge on more than one 'brand'. This day and age, if electronics is so great, you tell me how to make my national record holding drag race car run quicker. We do it the old 'red-neck/ shade tree way....brains. You have your opinion and I have mine...just different.

[Todouble]

Originally Posted by mud yapster

Commercial and Industrial Air Conditioning. If you think auto mechanics charge a lot call me and you'll think they are cheeply price. Commercial A/C is high tech also. LOL

I have to agree here. I am also commercial/industrial hvac tech. and the rates aren't cheap. You need laptops to interface a lot of commercial machines these days. But I will say the BAS control guys are even more around here. There up there with lawyer rates.

[drittal]

Originally Posted by MillerTime

Maybe the guy at O'Reillys.
You can look at your data stream and look at parameters and voltage to see where a problem lies.
You cant fix a computer unless you have a screen or another computer to look at it. And these days there maybe 1 to 2 dozen computers on a vehicle.
To achieve everything that epa wants, and have reliability, you have to have everything ran just perfect to achieve clean fuel mileage and computers are they only way they are achieving it.

Nope. Dealership woes. I had 2 F150 ecoboosts. One did the intercooler stumble 2x when my wife was driving. 1st time we take it in. Sorry, no codes and we couldnt recreate. Made me change drop in air filter back to Motorcraft and remove bug screen from radiator. I start looking online to find dozens having the same problem with the same dealer response. 2nd time we take it in Ford has a tsb about the issue. Sorry, no codes and we couldn't recreate. Excuse me? There is a tsb on this issue. We haven't seen anything on it. I went home and printed the tsb and brought it to them. Oh, we haven't seen this one yet. Ya, ya, ya... my ass.

The shops won't get paid by the mfr for warranty work if there isn't a code thrown or failure, so they won't attempt to fix it.

If is motor or tranny related and under warranty, it better cause a code or its working within designed parameters and only gets fixed if there is a failure or injury.

Another example was some 2014 6.4 rams were assembled with a batch of bad wrist pins. People take them in for knocking. No codes. No problem... until failure. Now RAM is replacing entire motors from a select date range. But not a recall.

I also wouldn't suggest having the guy at O'Reillys hook up a scanner on a vehicle under warranty. Mfr's are so gun shy about tuners these days that if they see it has been accessed they will assume it was tuned and may deny warranty work on powertrain issues. Local dodge dealer did this to my old boss and thwn sent him a bill for diagnostics. Had to take his cummins to another dealer to have bad injectors replaced that had a recall or tsb on them. He drives a Ford now even though he liked the Dodge better.

[bob caldwell]

To bad were're not still rid'n horses.

[MillerTime]

Originally Posted by drittal

Nope. Dealership woes. I had 2 F150 ecoboosts. One did the intercooler stumble 2x when my wife was driving. 1st time we take it in. Sorry, no codes and we couldnt recreate. Made me change drop in air filter back to Motorcraft and remove bug screen from radiator. I start looking online to find dozens having the same problem with the same dealer response. 2nd time we take it in Ford has a tsb about the issue. Sorry, no codes and we couldn't recreate. Excuse me? There is a tsb on this issue. We haven't seen anything on it. I went home and printed the tsb and brought it to them. Oh, we haven't seen this one yet. Ya, ya, ya... my ass.

The shops won't get paid by the mfr for warranty work if there isn't a code thrown or failure, so they won't attempt to fix it.

If is motor or tranny related and under warranty, it better cause a code or its working within designed parameters and only gets fixed if there is a failure or injury.

Another example was some 2014 6.4 rams were assembled with a batch of bad wrist pins. People take them in for knocking. No codes. No problem... until failure. Now RAM is replacing entire motors from a select date range. But not a recall.

I also wouldn't suggest having the guy at O'Reillys hook up a scanner on a vehicle under warranty. Mfr's are so gun shy about tuners these days that if they see it has been accessed they will assume it was tuned and may deny warranty work on powertrain issues. Local dodge dealer did this to my old boss and thwn sent him a bill for diagnostics. Had to take his cummins to another dealer to have bad injectors replaced that had a recall or tsb on them. He drives a Ford now even though he liked the Dodge better.

Yep, reported the cause of the ecoboost problem on here a couple years ago. Fords and some others are a pain to diagnose intermittent problems as their ecm does not keep history codes (varies my year, model etc.).
Sometimes the price you pay for technology is it takes a while to reach the masses, when it comes to fixes or new problems. Just wait till the new f150 owners start having their vehicles hit by hail or involved in major collisions. Most shops aren't able to handle the aluminum repairs yet. Out of 6 current collision shops we own only one is set up for aluminum and ford certified. (And aluminum repair is almost twice the price as steel).

As for the misconception about hooking a scanner up. Its just that. Tuner flashes are just that, flashes. Flashes and reprogramming is what you can see on the manuf., or tech level if so equipped.
Scanning one, is completely different. Basically it is a read only and a reset. You cant tell who did scan or what,and Manu. by law have only a few months before the information is released. Snapon, Genesis etc. usually have a 6 month to 1 year lag, but sometimes you can "hack" or trick the scanner into reading a newer model.

Good luck gents! I think this new fangled computer technology is here to stay. So i guess its get on board or keep pouring money in that old machine.

[bob caldwell]

GM was the first to let you read real time events using Snap-On scanner....

[MillerTime]

Originally Posted by bob caldwell

GM was the first to let you read real time events using Snap-On scanner....

Couldn't say one way or another. I've had data streaming since ive been in the business, but gm is oftentimes easier to diag than many others.
15 years ago Genesis/otc was the best in my opinion, the snapon brick sucked. Now the past 4 or 5 years snapon is superior i think since the solus, modis and such have been out. I know i switched to snapon from genesis/otc about 3 or 4 years ago when they came out with a keyless (except on certain euro cables ) scanner.
Thier (snapon) support is better for me, and i can print screen shots and trouble shoot info to help notate and inform customers and insurance.
And supposedly snapon is the diagnostic software provider (or something like that as stated by snapon) for gm.

[mud yapster]

Like was said good or bad technology is here to stay and is fast pasted progression and getting faster by the minute. I think my new 5er is one of the least technology advanced things I have, although as nice as it is I've added more technology to it than it came with.
Some fight it but it isn't going to go away it's only going to get more advanced.

[Witch Doctor]

Originally Posted by mud yapster

Well after reading this entire thread and upgraded my TV from a 2001 F350 7.3L that had 133,000 miles and no major issues in its use of towing. I hope my new 2015 Ram 3500 6.7L is as issue free. It tows my 18,000 lb. 5er a lot better and I did get the Aisis tranny that I'm not that impressed with yet but it's nicer than my old 4R100 was.
OP I wish you the best of luck with the rebuild.
For the other fellows, tools aren't cheep and I have a bunch of them and most are specialized tool and meters and I charge a usage fee for them. Commercial and Industrial Air Conditioning. If you think auto mechanics charge a lot call me and you'll think they are cheeply price. Commercial A/C is high tech also. LOL

I also was a Service Tech, installer and designed systems. Had a company, and also managed 45 Sheet metal Mechanics. Buy a break or a plasma cutter and then tell me what it cost. Tools are built into the overhead. Never ever did we ever charge for tools, that's part of overhead. When I started we charged 35.00 per hour when I got out it was doubled that. It wasn't because of tools it was because of the price of labor and benefits. (Union shop local #104 SF.Ca. and proud of it) Plasma cutters and design cad programs made the job easier and less labor. We abosberted the new tech. and never charged for it. We bought our mechanics the tools required to due there job, just as a dealership does. How many times you going to charge for the same computer or the upgrades? Yes it cost a shop 2000.00 to up grade there programs yearly, but there has to be an break even point. Thanks for letting me rant about being ripped off....

[mud yapster]

It's all a rip off but one way or the other as you stated it's build into the price either in labor price or seperate charge.

[Tonkatoy77]

Originally Posted by Kenny kustom

You don't work for free, why should I ?
I have about $50k in tools.
Were they free? If someone is on your truck, they should be getting paid for it.....


2008 F350 CCSB V10
2016 Sabre 36QBOK

I think what he was getting at is dealers are charging for stuff that is totally unnecessary.

Here is an example of a shop trying to screw it to the customer. And, for the record, I am a school bus mechanic. We had several of our newer buses go on a field trip. 650 miles round trip. One of the rear engine buses were pouring coolant out of the overflow tube every time they would pull a hill. When they got to the top of the hill they would have to add 2 gallons of water to the cooling system. By the time they got home the coolant was diluted down to almost all water. Having 200 buses, we have seen this before and repaired the ones not under warranty ourselves. Every time it has been a bad EGR cooler. Since this bus was new, we took it in to the dealer and told them everything I mentioned above. They had the bus for two weeks before finally calling us and let us know it was ready to go. They diagnosed it being a leaking sight glass and the sight glass falls under the one year warranty. The bus was one month out of the one year warranty. They charged us $706.00. By the time the driver got the bus back to our yard it was 3 gallons low on coolant. When we called them to let them know it still wasn't fixed, they said that all we gave them for a description of the problem is it had a coolant leak.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm at most shops these days. All of the dealers are hiring straight out of UTI and ITT Tech technicians. And if the screen doesn't tell them what to fix, their lost. I can give examples all day long of how dealers have tried screwing us over.


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