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Old 07-21-2012, 02:17 PM   #1
DnD
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TV calculation help needed please

Hi all!

Dione & I have been researching purchasing a TT for quite a while now. After several “this is the one” epiphanies we have finally arrived at a model we are sold on. We really like the Surveyor SV301.

Because the price was a little higher than we had original budgeted for and “life” getting in the way (medical bills), we are looking at next March before we can put a deal together. So we have time to work everything out.

Me being the anal retentive type, I am obsessing over TV capabilities. Here are my numbers:

TV: 2011 4x2 Ram 1500 Laramie Quad Cab, 5.7l Hemi, Auto, 3.92, Dual Transmission Coolers, Class IV receiver (Looking to employ an Equalizer WD)

GVWR: 6,700
Payload: 1,431
GCWR: 15,500

TT: 2013 Surveyor SV301 (Stats from FR web site)

Dry Hitch: 957
Dry Ship: 7,058
GVWR: 11,117

Assumptions:
1) A passenger and gear load on TV: approx. 500 lbs. less 150 lb allowance for driver = 350 lbs.
2) Based on past experience we will put approx. 1,200 lbs. in trailer (including water, generator, propane & batteries)
3) Assuming a tongue weight at (7,058+1,200)*.13 = 1,073
By my calculations my payload will come out to 350 + 1073 = 1,423 or 8 lbs under Max Payload so I am pretty much maxed out.

I am about 500 lbs. under on GCWR 6,700(TV)+7,058(TW DRY)+1,200(TW Load) = 14,958.

I don’t fully understand how a WD hitch would impact these calculations.

Because I have only had the TV for 14 months I would like to hold off replacing it for a while.


Please let me know if I am missing something.


Thanks,

Dan
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Old 07-21-2012, 02:52 PM   #2
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The wdh will not do anything for gcwr....combo will weigh what it weighs. It WILL transfer some of the rear axle weight to front of tv and to trailer axles.....

With that said i find many who creep up on Max payload numbers end up over the rear axle weight rating anyway....

Ideally i think most agree 80% of max is where the numbers 'look' best.....

It seems like you have a good grasp of how the numbers work.....so now its just up to you to decide if you are comfortable pulling with those numbers.
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Old 07-21-2012, 03:18 PM   #3
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Thanks for your feedback ironj!

On the WD I did realize it would have no effect on the GCWR. I should have been more specific in what I was confused on. What I didn't understand was the effect to GVWR on the TV. With the WD shifting some weight to the trailer axels does that truly reduce the payload impact on the TV?

Without the trailer and a trip to the scale I can’t know for sure on the individual axle loads. Is there some way to estimate? The numbers from Ram for my trim level are:

Base Weight:
Total: 5,269
Front: 3,017
Rear: 2,252

GAWR:
Front: 3,700
Rear: 3,900

Thanks,

Dan
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:43 AM   #4
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It looks like the maximum tow rating for that truck is 10,200 lbs.....almost 1000 lbs. under the GVWR of the trailer. With a dry shipping weight of the Surveyor listed at 7058, and probably around 7500 lbs. with options, the the trailer could be kept in the the 9000 lb. range when loaded. So the towing maximum could work.

The big problem with this combo is gonna be the GVWR and GCWR of the RAM, as the OP suspects.

The base weight of the RAM at 5269 might be OK as the truck comes off of the line, but that is not a real world figure. What other accessories and personal gear have been added to the truck ?? Plus you have to add the passengers, and what ever gear camping gear is in the bed. In my case, with a similar "listed" empty weight on my F150, I am right around 6000 lbs. with me sitting in the seat without the trailer hooked up. Check out the local landfill or rock quarry and see if you can go across the scales and get an accurate weight of the truck as it sits.

That 957 lb. tongue weight is gonna grow significantly when ready for camping, probably in the 1100-1200 lb. range. Yes, the WDH will transfer some of the weight back to the trailer axles, but not as much as expected....a guesstimate would be about 200 lbs. So that is still an extra 1000 lbs. added to the truck weight, more than likely putting it way over the GVWR of 6700 lbs.

Likewise for the 15,500 GCWR. If the trailer could be kept around 9000 lbs., and the truck could be kept at the listed 6700 lb GVWR, that is 15,700 lbs......200 lbs. over the listed 15,500 lb. GCWR.

The hitch may be another problem. Many times a manufacturer will install a hitch that the tongue weight is 10% of the total rate of the hitch with a weight distributing hitch. If the hitch is rated for 10,200 lbs, then the maximum tongue weight is gonna be 1020 lbs.....probably well under the actual tongue weight. There should be sticker on the hitch stating the weights.

IMHO, that way too much trailer for any 1/2 ton truck. A long wheelbased 3/4 or 1 ton truck would be a much better fit.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:34 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DnD View Post
Thanks for your feedback ironj!

On the WD I did realize it would have no effect on the GCWR. I should have been more specific in what I was confused on. What I didn't understand was the effect to GVWR on the TV. With the WD shifting some weight to the trailer axels does that truly reduce the payload impact on the TV?

Without the trailer and a trip to the scale I can’t know for sure on the individual axle loads. Is there some way to estimate? The numbers from Ram for my trim level are:

Base Weight:
Total: 5,269
Front: 3,017
Rear: 2,252

GAWR:
Front: 3,700
Rear: 3,900

Thanks,

Dan
Since you have time, i would suggest getting the truck weighed first and foremost. Then look at trailers with a gcwr in your range.....while you may never load the trailer to capacity, shopping by ' dry weight' and guesstimating your final road weight have been a frustrating experience for many.

My truck base weight and trailer dry weight was 'on paper' were ~ 15k...last scale trip gave me right around 18k loaded....just goes to show how the numbers can get out of hand quick if you are dealing in maxes....and using 'published ' weights as your basis.

As far as your original question on wd hitches, yes it will take some load off rear axle...but remember it only 'distributes' weight, not eliminate it.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:42 AM   #6
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You can answer some of the weight issue by loading up the truck, full fuel, gear and people and head to a CAT scale and get front/rear axle weight. I had a '05 Ram SLT QC SB RWD 5.7 that weighed 5700 lbs with 350 lb people, 80 lb dog and full fuel and nothing in the truck bed. That left 950 lbs of payload (GVWR 0f 6650). I'd bet the your truck loaded up will weigh more and therefore less payload available for tongue weight. You can also compare the rear axle weight to the trucks RAWR (think it's 3900 lbs) that will be about 450 lbs of payload more before you reach that limit compared to payload calculated from the truck's GVWR.

From numbers posted here, it's not unusual to distribute 200+ lbs of tongue weight from the truck's rear axle. I think you'll be dancing around the truck's GVWR but under the truck's RAWR. You'll have to decide if you're comfortable with that.

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Old 07-23-2012, 10:13 AM   #7
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FYI-I recently bought a SV 301, trading in a 26' Salem. I know the 301 is considered a "light weight" trailer, but it was significantly heavier, longer, and overall bigger than what I was accustomed to towing. My TV is a 6.4 F250 diesel, and it does a good job towing, but I could really feel the difference. I had a difficult time pulling the Salem with a 1/2 ton Silverado, that's why I got the F250. I really love the new trailer, but I couldn't imagine pulling it with a 1/2 ton truck. Just my $.02.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:00 PM   #8
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I thank you all who responded! This BB has some great folks helping others!

It’s nice to confirm that for the most part I understood the calculations. I am pretty sure I could dance around the numbers and keep within limits by how I load out. But as some of you have pointed out, being within limits doesn’t always mean safe.


So while not wanting to upgrade the TV (losing money on it sucks) I am lucky in that we can afford to do so. I guess we will be out looking at 2500/3500 Rams. Most likely the 3500 because knowing Dione, “we’ll” want to upgrade to a 5er in a few years LOL


Again thanks to all of you. It’s nice to be able to ask questions and not be treated like a moron. Even though going ahead with using the current TV could be considered moronic J


Dan
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
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FYI-I recently bought a SV 301, trading in a 26' Salem. I know the 301 is considered a "light weight" trailer, but it was significantly heavier, longer, and overall bigger than what I was accustomed to towing. My TV is a 6.4 F250 diesel, and it does a good job towing, but I could really feel the difference. I had a difficult time pulling the Salem with a 1/2 ton Silverado, that's why I got the F250. I really love the new trailer, but I couldn't imagine pulling it with a 1/2 ton truck. Just my $.02.
frfan,

It's really nice to get feedback from someone with the same trailer. The floor plan is perfect for what we were looking for. I was just shocked at the dry hitch weight in comparison to the other 30x models. I gather it’s due to the forward slide out.

If you get a chance I would appreciate any words of advice or things you like or don't like on the 301.

Thanks,

Dan
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:03 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by DnD View Post
I thank you all who responded! This BB has some great folks helping others!

It’s nice to confirm that for the most part I understood the calculations. I am pretty sure I could dance around the numbers and keep within limits by how I load out. But as some of you have pointed out, being within limits doesn’t always mean safe.


So while not wanting to upgrade the TV (losing money on it sucks) I am lucky in that we can afford to do so. I guess we will be out looking at 2500/3500 Rams. Most likely the 3500 because knowing Dione, “we’ll” want to upgrade to a 5er in a few years LOL


Again thanks to all of you. It’s nice to be able to ask questions and not be treated like a moron. Even though going ahead with using the current TV could be considered moronic J


Dan
while i am probably one of the young uns' on here, and relatively new to THIS trailer, and its more modern "amenities" i have been towing for a long time.....

its always nice to be able to give back and help a "brother" out when you can!!

You are NOT a moron for trying to educate yourself on proper towing!! Like i tell my clients, "there is no such thing as a dumb or stupid question!! Unless you ask the EXACT same thing 3 times"!! LOL...

The only issue i see is that if you go to a 3/4 or 1ton diesel, your towing options open up on a different level....and sometimes that can get expensive! LOL...

Good luck! cant wait to see new pics of rig and trailer when you get em set up!!.....and i dont care what anyone says....buying a trailer that matches your TV and compliments its colors SHOULD be a requisite!
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:04 PM   #11
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So far, we love the trailer. We fell in love with the roominess and the storage space. Only camped 3 times since we got the trailer in May. The biggest challenge was a trip to Salt Lake City on I-80. It was windy on the trip home. Even though the wind blew us around a bit, trailer and truck was affected as a unit. In other words, no trailer sway. SLC was my first experience of city driving, but just took everything slow and deliberate. We have the 15K air conditioner, and we stayed cool in 100+ temps with grandkids opening and closing the door. The additional length is the most foreign aspect of the trailer, but, again, if I take my time and focus on the job at hand, I seem to do ok. PM me with more questions if you like (no sense boring others with my boasting about our new toy!)
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:16 PM   #12
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Just a couple thoughts to add to an excellent discussion.

1) Remember that the trailer must be under its GVWR disconnected from the TV and sitting on the ground. (IE including tongue weight). This is because even hooked up the trailer's frame "sees" the entire load regardless of how it is distributed.

2) The truck must be under it's max gross weight WITH the entire tongue load on it because the trucks' frame will see the entire weight of everything in it plus the weight of the trailer's tongue. (again regardless of how it winds up being distributed with the WD hitch.

3) The tongue load must fall between 10% and 15% (with the optimum distribution falling at 12.5%) of the disconnected trailer weight for safe handling characteristics (like excessive sway and front end hunting).

A 10,000 pound camper "must" have a 1000 - 1500 pound tongue weight for safety. With an available payload of only 1400 pounds with a 150 pound driver and a tank of gas, you will quickly overload your truck well before you hit your max combined weight.
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:35 PM   #13
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Good luck! cant wait to see new pics of rig and trailer when you get em set up!!.....and i dont care what anyone says....buying a trailer that matches your TV and compliments its colors SHOULD be a requisite!
I know what you mean and I agree with you 100% I have always had red trucks. Now because this trailer is tan and black we will have to go with a tan truck. NO WAY we can do black in Phoenix LOL

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Old 07-23-2012, 02:53 PM   #14
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Herk –

Thanks for the additional clarity. I was pretty sure I was pushing the envelope with this combination but before going to the expense of buying a new truck I wanted to confirm. I wasn't sure of the impact to the calculations from WD utilization and if that would effectively mitigate the hit to the payload capacity. Based on your clarifications above it really doesn’t.

Some folks seem to come on BB's looking for justification for taking on too much trailer for a TV. I am not one of those folks. In my youth I had a few experiences with being overloaded (either payload in the truck or badly loaded trailer). At that time I thought I could do anything I wanted and not have any repercussions. As an adult I have realized that not only do I endanger myself and family but others on the road. So that’s a mistake I’ll never make again.

Dan
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:43 PM   #15
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I know what you mean and I agree with you 100% I have always had red trucks. Now because this trailer is tan and black we will have to go with a tan truck. NO WAY we can do black in Phoenix LOL

Dan

while west tx is no pheonix, we have our share of 100-105 degree days (51 of them last summer alone) and with night time lows in the upper 80s i sometimes wonder my sanity in picking "tuxedo black metallic" because of its awesomeness factor.....LOL...

in any case, my sanity has been validated with the use of nifty features like "remote start" and "a/c leather seats" coupled with DARK tint, and auto retracting window sunshades!!

not so sure i would be so inclined to attempt that in pheonix.....but then again i do LOVE my truck as is! haah
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:44 PM   #16
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Think of it this way. The WD hitch does not reduce the tongue load it just adjusts the axles that carry it so that the load is evenly distributed among the axles. The WD hitch performs this magic with leverage.

The lever (truck and camper frame) and the fulcrum (the hitch and truck receiver) see the entire load.

For the engineers out there:
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:17 PM   #17
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Think of it this way. The WD hitch does not reduce the tongue load it just adjusts the axles that carry it so that the load is evenly distributed among the axles. The WD hitch performs this magic with leverage.

The lever (truck and camper frame) and the fulcrum (the hitch and truck receiver) see the entire load.

For the engineers out there:
I was software engineer....does that count?

Reality is I couldn't really dance around the numbers by adjusting loads because the hitch weight would definitely exceed the TV's GVWR. Thanks for the analogy. It helps me now fully understand the effects of the WD.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:26 PM   #18
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I was software engineer....does that count?
I was referring to a train engineer ()
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:50 PM   #19
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You will find the weights on the spec sheet to be well under the actual weight. Mine is 350 lbs heavier and most is in the hitch. Plus, a good WD hitch is quite heavy. You may be able to keep the overall trailer weight within the limits of the truck but with only 1431 lbs of load capacity for the truck you will very likely be over your rear axle weight rating. The actual hitch weight will most likely exceed 1000 lbs. The actual weight of the truck will surely be more than the specs, too, so there is very little load capacity left. Load capacity is the biggest shortcoming of 1\2 ton trucks-a 3/4 ton will have 3000 lbs or more to work with.
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:52 PM   #20
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I was referring to a train engineer ()
OK cool...as long as it wasn't a sanitation engineer
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