Weight Police- Answer this...

[MillerTime]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

No, I agree with everything he said with the exception of that one sentence. lol

Well you, me and a few others may, but after one of you old guys crawl out from under one truck, and roll under another to inspect...... can u remember what you were looking for? LOL JUST KIDDING!!!

those were hypothetical numbers, but you of all people should know that sometimes there are differences that are hard to determine with out a pair of mics.

[Travler]

You can look at the trucks and the build specs. and you may not see any changes. The material in the springs can be the difference. You can not always see the difference. As stated before, brake size or even brake material can make the difference. I do not know the difference in the truck listed but work for a vehicle Maf. An know you can't always see the change even when not mounted in the truck. Trust me the engineers have numbers to back it up.

[DDC]

Currently there's an SAE J2807 towing standards stalemate in which all of the major pickup manufacturers, except for one smaller-volume player, are waiting for each other to voluntarily adopt and report figures according to the new standard. When will voluntary, universal compliance finally happen? It's anyone's guess, but today, nearly three years after the establishment of the standards, only Toyota is voluntarily abiding by and reporting towing capacity of its full-size trucks.

Read more: Stalemate: J2807 Truck Towing Standard - Truck Trend News

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by DDC

Currently there's an SAE J2807 towing standards stalemate in which all of the major pickup manufacturers, except for one smaller-volume player, are waiting for each other to voluntarily adopt and report figures according to the new standard. When will voluntary, universal compliance finally happen? It's anyone's guess, but today, nearly three years after the establishment of the standards, only Toyota is voluntarily abiding by and reporting towing capacity of its full-size trucks.

Read more: Stalemate: J2807 Truck Towing Standard - Truck Trend News

It is important to note that all the Jazz is about the major manufacturers "fibbing" about their GVWR numbers UP; not down.

The big push is to juggle the test parameters to make their pickup seem to be able to pull MORE weight than the competition.

[kandl]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

What say you?

A more glaring example of this issue might be Chrysler's maneuver in 2010 re the 1500 Rams with max tow capacity. With no mechanical or structural changes to the 2010 trucks from 2009 (the first year for the 4th Gen Ram), the towing capacity was increased by 1500 lbs. Interestingly, Chrysler did not retroactively adjust the towing capacity of the 2009 fleet even after admitting that there were no structural differences between the 2009 and 2010 trucks.

Things that make you go hmmm....

[sail2liv]

Criteria is just that and human factor applied to criteria is different every time any situation is addressed....

[Herk7769]

Originally Posted by sail2liv

Criteria is just that and human factor applied to criteria is different every time any situation is addressed....

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (Finagle's version) in a nutshell.

The act of observing the data; changes the data to suit the observer's intended outcome.

[DDC]

Towing capacities from the big three north American manufacturers are pick from sky hooks, there is some trial and error testing done but none of it is definitive, that is why they are so wary of signing on to the SAE J2807 standard because there would need to be actual figures to back up their claims.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by DDC

Towing capacities from the big three north American manufacturers are pick from sky hooks, there is some trial and error testing done but none of it is definitive, that is why they are so wary of signing on to the SAE J2807 standard because there would need to be actual figures to back up their claims.

I think most of us would agree with this statement. Which is part of the reason it blows my mind that so many people put so much faith in that number. The simple fact is that safety when towing is a slow transition from white to black, with a very wide grey area. One of the problems I have with the standard is that it applies very rigorous towing parameters, when not everyone will tow in those conditions. If I live in a flat area and am looking for a truck to do local towing on my farm, for example, why do I need enough engine to drag a given load up a steep incline at a certain speed and so on? Once again, it would serve the purpose of allowing one to compare apples to apples, but in no way would it give a true indication of safe towing limits for all conditions.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by kandl

A more glaring example of this issue might be Chrysler's maneuver in 2010 re the 1500 Rams with max tow capacity. With no mechanical or structural changes to the 2010 trucks from 2009 (the first year for the 4th Gen Ram), the towing capacity was increased by 1500 lbs. Interestingly, Chrysler did not retroactively adjust the towing capacity of the 2009 fleet even after admitting that there were no structural differences between the 2009 and 2010 trucks.

Things that make you go hmmm....

This is exactly my point. But you are a menace to society if you exceed the towing capacity of the 09.

[Rugged Brown]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

This is exactly my point. But you are a menace to society if you exceed the towing capacity of the 09.

Or at the very least, a menace to the number crunching weight police on this forum.

[acadianbob]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

2013 Ford F150 with tow package gives a GVWR of 7200#. Add the max trailer tow package and GVWR goes to 7700#. There is NOTHING on the truck that affects payload capacity.

To the best of my knowledge, this isn't correct. I called Ford when I ordered the Max Tow on my FX4. I questioned the factors that the allowed more payload and tow capacity. While GVW goes up 500 lbs, payload only goes up 350 lbs. So, there is another 150 lbs in the truck. They assured me that there are differences.

According to Ford, here are the differences that account for different ratings:
1) Extra cooling radiator (yes, I know others show HD but this is even bigger)
2) HD bushings in the front suspension for great loader capacity on the front
3) HD rear leaf springs compared to the 7200 GVW models
4) A slightly higher capacity rear axle
5) A heavier hitch and heavier mounting to the truck

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by acadianbob

To the best of my knowledge, this isn't correct. I called Ford when I ordered the Max Tow on my FX4. I questioned the factors that the allowed more payload and tow capacity. While GVW goes up 500 lbs, payload only goes up 350 lbs. So, there is another 150 lbs in the truck. They assured me that there are differences.

According to Ford, here are the differences that account for different ratings:
1) Extra cooling radiator (yes, I know others show HD but this is even bigger)
2) HD bushings in the front suspension for great loader capacity on the front
3) HD rear leaf springs compared to the 7200 GVW models
4) A slightly higher capacity rear axle
5) A heavier hitch and heavier mounting to the truck

Not saying it's inaccurate, but yours if the first of a dozen or so accounts from people analyzing them (and contacting Ford and dealer service departments) that were advised of #2,3, and 4. I am in no way saying your info isn't accurate, but I am very suspicious of the changes you mention because of how cheap the package is. It would be quite costly for Ford to tool up to make different springs, bushings, axles, etc. and then charge only $500 for the package. The mirrors alone cost almost that much when purchased separately. And why wouldn't Ford mention any of these beefier components in their lit like they do with the HD Payload package? Who did you talk to at Ford? I'd like to discuss with them too, if you have contact information available.

Edit: I'll also add that 2,3, and 4 are the only in the list that affect payload. The axle rating on all of the trucks is already substantially higher than the GVWR, so I don't see why you'd need to increase it's listed capacity to up GVWR. So even if this info is accurate, I should technically be able to add airbags and heavier bushings (not even sure what this would be unless they use a polyurethane like Prothane as opposed to rubber bushing??) and have the payload of a MaxTow.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

This is exactly my point. But you are a menace to society if you exceed the towing capacity of the 09.

Originally Posted by Rugged Brown

Or at the very least, a menace to the number crunching weight police on this forum.

Might I remind everyone that we moderators would like to see this thread stay open as much as the next guy. This won't happen if there is personal sniping (including the way that most use the term "weight police" in a derogatory manner) or even name calling (things have been edited out of posts with reminders sent to folks). As I posted before:

Originally Posted by ependydad

It's not us that shut things down- we just click the button. It's the posts, deletes and edits that have to happen that cause us to click it. You all are in control of your destiny.

If everyone keeps it above the belt without snide comments or personal sniping or venturing off into restricted topics, the thread could stay open indefinitely. Unfortunately, history has shown us that this seems to be a topic that people get "all riled up" over and emotions flare and we ultimately are forced to click the button.

[dustman_stx]

Here is the info from the Ford order guide:

Originally Posted by Ford Order Guide[/url
��MAX TRAILER TOW PACKAGE – POWER MIRROR (60P)
Availability:
• Optional on XL Regular and SuperCab, XLT and FX2/FX4
Not Available with:
• 126" wheelbase
• Max Trailer Tow Package (60M)
• XLT SuperCab 145" wheelbase with P235/75R17 BSW A/T (T7B),
L245/75R17E BSW A/T (T7E) or P255/65R17 OWL A/S (T73)
• XLT SuperCrew with P255/65R17 OWL A/S (T73) or L245/75R17E
BSW A/T (T7E)
Requires:
• 3.5L EcoBoost™ Engine (99T)
• 3.73 LS rear-axle ratio (XL, XLT and FX2)
• 3.73 electronic-locking differential axle (XLT w/Off-Road Pkg. – 55A and
FX4)
• XL requires Fog Lamps (595), XL Décor Group (86D) and Power Equipment Group (85A)
• XL and XLT Regular Cab requires Heavy-Duty Payload Pkg. (627)
Includes:
• Upgraded rear bumper
• Class IV trailer hitch receiver
• 7-pin wiring harness
• Upgraded radiator
• Auxiliary transmission oil cooler
• Trailer Brake Control
• SelectShift Transmission
• Side Mirrors, black manual telescoping trailer tow w/power glass
(includes heat, turn signal & puddle lamps)
• Memory feature included on side mirrors when order with FX Luxury
Package (55F)

This is all listed in the 302A package I have except for the mirrors and bumper. I added the mirrors. Oh, but I have 3.55 instead of 3.73.

I will also add- but this is somewhat speculation- that it is possible the 150 pound difference is because the book is base model numbers and doesn't take into account options. Therefore, the book assumes you have the hitch, aux trans cooler, etc. when you get the max tow and automatically deducts for them. But they are options without max tow, and are therefore NOT included in the capacities listed in the book on non MaxTow vehicles.

[buckeyefan]

So this has been an interesting thread. I am not taking any position. The analytical part of me just wants to fine the “root solution”.
So if the OP was to find a same year Max Tow and a same year non max tow in basically the same configuration (FX4, Screw, etc.) couldn’t you go to Ford Parts online, enter the VIN, and try to order those parts they think are different? I assume Ford would have different part # if a part has different specs tolerance for the same item.
(You can search the online car searches to get VIN or got to a local ford dealer and write them down.)
Or maybe this doesn’t prove anything either… nor does it change the “claim” or the law.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by buckeyefan

...nor does it change the “claim” or the law.

What law?

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by buckeyefan

So this has been an interesting thread. I am not taking any position. The analytical part of me just wants to fine the “root solution”.
So if the OP was to find a same year Max Tow and a same year non max tow in basically the same configuration (FX4, Screw, etc.) couldn’t you go to Ford Parts online, enter the VIN, and try to order those parts they think are different? I assume Ford would have different part # if a part has different specs tolerance for the same item.
(You can search the online car searches to get VIN or got to a local ford dealer and write them down.)
Or maybe this doesn’t prove anything either… nor does it change the “claim” or the law.

I would think so. I did do an Ebay search for 2013 F150 rear springs and got only 2 different parts. I posed a question to the seller about the difference. I do know that the Max Payload has different springs- so I'm leaning toward the springs being the same on the Max Tow as the regular Tow. It is entirely possible one of the springs isn't listed, though.

[kandl]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

This is exactly my point. But you are a menace to society if you exceed the towing capacity of the 09.

It gets better...

The 1500 lb figure quoted was referenced by auto journalists in 2010 - it was an average. In our case, the 2010 Ram with 20-inch wheels and 3.92 gears picked up 2500 lbs of towing capacity over our similarly equipped 2009 model. I put the question to Chrysler re the vast difference between the 09 and the 10 but got little more than a line about reassessment of the truck's towing capacity for 2010 i.e., if you want more tow capacity in the half-ton, but a new truck... ROFL.

According to the 2009 specs, we're towing too much. Roger that - 10-4. Are we in reality a menace? Not even close. Our real world experience (18,000 km) has been that the truck is more than capable of safely tugging our TT. And... we're having a heck of of a lot fun doing so!

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by kandl

It gets better...

The 1500 lb figure quoted was referenced by auto journalists in 2010 - it was an average. In our case, the 2010 Ram with 20-inch wheels and 3.92 gears picked up 2500 lbs of towing capacity over our similarly equipped 2009 model. I put the question to Chrysler re the vast difference between the 09 and the 10 but got little more than a line about reassessment of the truck's towing capacity for 2010 i.e., if you want more tow capacity in the half-ton, but a new truck... ROFL.

According to the 2009 specs, we're towing too much. Roger that - 10-4. Are we in reality a menace? Not even close. Our real world experience (18,000 km) has been that the truck is more than capable of safely tugging our TT. And... we're having a heck of of a lot fun doing so!

Wow. That is a crazy jump- 7400 to 9900 towing capacity. I love it! They "reassessed"!!!!

This should be sobering evidence to those that claim there are strict engineering principles applied to determine the capacities. The "weakest link", whatever that might be, didn't change, but the rating did. Either there is a huge safety margin figured in and Dodge decided to "use" some of that, or there is something else being used to determine capacities- marketing, warranty, legal, ???? I think it is probably a combination of all of those. I will also point out that I still have not been able to find any state law about exceeding GVWR for most states(I have seen mention of 1 state that has a law indicating GVWR cannot be exceeded by more than 1000 pounds). How can the state enforce a law that is based on an arbitrarily determined number provided by a manufacturer? That would be like allowing each car manufacturer determine the speed limit for their own cars. I just don't see how it would be possible.