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Old 11-15-2013, 04:05 PM   #31
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Ok, so the theory is there that they picked a bigger alternator to be part of this "max tow package" in order to more quickly recharge batteries assuming that with the higher towing capacity means a trailer with brakes and therefore a battery. (Holy run on sentence, Batman!)

Anyway- pure guessing on my part, of course. It's remotely possible that they increased the payload capacity due to that. Continues to give credence to both sides of the fence - that the concept is the "weakest link". But also to the "exceed your ratings" side in that, it's hard to believe that the stock alternator can only supply enough power to the single battery in the truck.

(Shrugs)
The cost is insignificant in the build of a stock vs "big" alternator, but it seems to be a big advertising benefit. The batteries can be charged with one of the old original 45 amp alternators, it just takes longer.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:05 PM   #32
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So, doesn't that give credence to you don't completely know what the changes are with the max. tow package?
Well, I don't have a window sticker from each in front of me, so I didn't want to speak in absolutes. And none of the information I've read anywhere has ever mentioned anything about a larger alternator. Since this won't suffice, I'll say it definitively- there is NO upgraded alternator with MaxTow- and wait for someone to prove me wrong.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:45 PM   #33
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Well, I don't have a window sticker from each in front of me, so I didn't want to speak in absolutes. And none of the information I've read anywhere has ever mentioned anything about a larger alternator. Since this won't suffice, I'll say it definitively- there is NO upgraded alternator with MaxTow- and wait for someone to prove me wrong.
I think that's a little backwards of an approach. Your initial post, IMO, was about the increased payload capacity due to X, Y and Z. If you're going to draw the line in the sand, I don't think it's up to us to prove you wrong in what is/isn't included with these packages. Otherwise, we're just guessing...
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:09 PM   #34
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I believe I could respond in kind. No one has ever been able to give any concrete evidence that GVWR is determined by engineers applying consistent mechanical testing. On the contrary, much evidence and logic indicates that there are other factors at play here such as legal issues and economics, yet many refuse to admit that GVWR is not derived from strict engineering standards. I have just provided evidence that, in this case, Ford has issued an increased payload of ~7% with no real change in the structural integrity of the vehicle. Do you refuse to acknowledge that? If so, I think all can see who is holding to a belief here.

Mods- Can we please have a "spirited" debate here without shutting this thing down???
So, here is the thing...

"No one has ever been able to give any concrete evidence that GVWR is determined by engineers applying consistent mechanical testing. On the contrary, much evidence and logic indicates that there are other factors at play here such as legal issues and economics, yet many refuse to admit that GVWR is not derived from strict engineering standards. "

Why would they have to? The manufacturer sets that number based on their factors; not the consumer's wishes.

"I have just provided evidence that, in this case, Ford has issued an increased payload of ~7% with no real change in the structural integrity of the vehicle."

I missed that. What "evidence" as to "no real change in the structural integrity" was provided in any of these posts? What I saw was anecdotal and comparisons of optional equipment specs with no correlation to other modifications that could have been by the engineers to accommodate those options and increased payload.

Without access to the shop drawings used by the manufacturer's assembly line, it is impossible to know whether larger and/or higher grade bolts were used (for example) or if other nonspecific mods were done as part of the Max Tow Upgrade.

So, from my perspective; I DON'T KNOW and rely on the manufacturer's engineering and (I will throw you a bone) legal/warranty staff to determine the maximum load my equipment can safely handle without premature wear or failure.
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:55 PM   #35
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So, from my perspective; I DON'T KNOW and rely on the manufacturer's engineering and (I will throw you a bone) legal/warranty staff to determine the maximum load my equipment can safely handle without premature wear or failure.
Thanks Herk,

We can all make assumptions... but what you state is the truth and the best answer to the GVWR debate given what reliable and accurate information is readily available to consumers.

I don't know either.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:15 PM   #36
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Ok. I dont know specifically on fords, but on gm vehicle, difference in gvrw will have any or all of the mentioned differences.
1. Brake sizing- you will have to remove the wheels and use a measuring devise for rotors, drum or pad/shoe size differences.
2. Sometimes # ofpistons in the caliper
3. U joint sizes
4. Heavier axle shaftes and or # of splines
5. Hub bearing / or axle shaft bearings
- some have completely different axle housings that may be difficult to differentiate without micrometers or reading casting numbers
6. Transmission sizes that may be slightly heavier rated with different programming
7. Some trucks will have a completely different "tune" or program as another truck with the same drivetrain- usually on commercial trucks but is used to increase longevity from higher percentage of "duty or load" cycle.
8. Wheels sizes do make a difference, some just are not rated as high as well as tires.
9. Spring and or torsion rates- gm had about 7 or so different rated torsion bars and without knowing the part number you wouldnt know the rate, also about 5-6 different indexes on torsion keys.
10. Shocks.

But like stated before some of this you will never know unless you look up the vin or look at actual part numbers. You wont be able to see a u joint difference of 1.235" vs 1.756" jumping from truck to truck unless you have a pair of mics.
There are more differences out there but with out vins its really hard to compare.
- we have to order most of our parts with the vin to guarantee we get the correct part- but still there is errors from time to time.
-op good luck on your quest!
Talk to a dealer parts guy for real differences or you can just look at online parts store catalogs- look at brakes and ujoints, thats where alot of changes are!
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:16 PM   #37
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Where does the GVWR come from??????

Everyone is always talking weights GVWR, GCWR and Payload (CCC). I always read, “oh it’s a made up number”, “a 2500 can haul or carry the same as a 3500”.

Here is what I have found and where, IMHO I think the weight stickers on our door jambs come from.

Below are excerpts from 49 CFR.

Truck-camper loading.

49 CFR 575.103 Truck-camper loading.

Here is how I read it.

(a) Scope. This section requires manufacturers of slide-in campers to affix to each camper a label that contains information relating to identification and proper loading of the camper and to provide more detailed loading information in the owner's manual. This section also requires manufacturers of trucks that would accommodate slide-in campers to specify the cargo weight ratings and the longitudinal limits within which the center of gravity for the cargo weight rating should be located.

(b) Purpose. The purpose of this section is to provide information that can be used to reduce overloading and improper load placement in truck-camper combinations and unsafe truck- camper matching in order to prevent accidents resulting from the adverse effects of these conditions on vehicle steering and braking. (c) Application. This section applies to slide-in campers and to trucks that are capable of accommodating slide- in campers.

(c) Application. This section applies to slide-in campers and to trucks that are capable of accommodating slide- in campers.

(d) Definitions. Camper means a structure designed to be mounted in the cargo area of a truck, or attached to an incomplete vehicle with motive power, for the purpose of providing shelter for persons. Cargo Weight Rating means the value specified by the manufacturer as the cargo-carrying capacity, in pounds or kilograms, of a vehicle, exclusive of the weight of occupants in designated seating positions, computed as 68 kilograms or 150 pounds times the number of designated seating positions.

When the truck-camper is loaded, drive to a scale and weigh on the front and on the rear wheels separately to determine axle loads. The load on an axle should not exceed its gross axle weight rating (GAWR). The total of the axle loads should not exceed the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). These weight ratings are given on the vehicle certification label that is located on the left side of the vehicle, normally on the dash panel, hinge pillar, door latch post, or door edge next to the driver on trucks manufactured on or after January 1, 1972. If weight ratings are exceeded, move or remove items to bring all weights below the ratings.”


(2) Trucks. (i) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2)(ii) of this section, each manufacturer of a truck that is capable of accommodating a slide-in camper shall provide to the purchaser in the owner's manual or other document delivered with the truck, in writing and in the English language, the information specified in paragraphs (e)(2)(i) (A) through (E) of this section.

(A) A picture showing the manufacturer's recommended longitudinal center of gravity zone for the cargo weight rating in the form illustrated in Figure 4. The boundaries of the zone shall be such that when a slide-in camper equal in weight to the truck's cargo weight rating is installed, no GAWR of the truck is exceeded.

(B) The truck's cargo weight rating.

(C) The statements: “When the truck is used to carry a slide-in camper, the total cargo load of the truck consists of the manufacturer's camper weight figure, the weight of installed additional camper equipment not included in the manufacturer's camper weight figure, the weight of camper cargo, and the weight of passengers in the camper. The total cargo load should not exceed the truck's cargo weight rating and the camper's center of gravity should fall within the truck's recommended center of gravity zone when installed.”

(D) A picture showing the proper match of a truck and slide-in camper in the form illustrated in Figure 3.

(E) The statements: “Secure loose items to prevent weight shifts that could affect the balance of your vehicle. When the truck camper is loaded, drive to a scale and weigh on the front and on the rear wheels separately to determine axle loads. Individual axle loads should not exceed either of the gross axle weight ratings (GAWR). The total of the axle loads should not exceed the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). These ratings are given on the vehicle certification label that is located on the left side of the vehicle, normally the dash, hinge pillar, door latch post, or door edge next to the driver. If weight ratings are exceeded, move or remove items to bring all weights below the ratings.”


Okay, they GM, Ford, Dodge pay people a lot more than I make to comply with Federal regulations. So I believe they have a very good reason to set the GVWR and CCC where they do for a particular truck.

Oh by the way I checked inside my glove box and my CCC is 1763 lbs. Guess what 7500 lbs base weight, GVWR 9200 lbs, = 1700 lbs CCC.

Okay I’ve said my piece, now I’ll just sit back and chuckle at the comments.

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Old 11-15-2013, 07:21 PM   #38
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...You wont be able to see a u joint difference of 1.235" vs 1.756" jumping from truck to truck unless you have a pair of mics...
1/2" difference is easily seen, you sure don't need a micrometer to see the difference.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:32 PM   #39
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1/2" difference is easily seen, you sure don't need a micrometer to see the difference.
Neil, I think you might have missed his point.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:35 PM   #40
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Neil, I think you might have missed his point.
No, I agree with everything he said with the exception of that one sentence. lol
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