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Old 11-22-2013, 09:16 AM   #81
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About where this topic has landed after reading all the post between conspiracy theory folks and guys who actually work in/around the Ford parts business.
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:21 AM   #82
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Nice summary Cajun!

You know what they say: You can lead a ________ to water but you can't make him drink.
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:41 AM   #83
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Nice summary Cajun! You know what they say: You can lead a ________ to water but you can't make him drink.
Truthfully, I think that applies to both sides and frankly, it's what bothers me most about these discussions - each side generally comes into these discussions with preconceived notions that they have the answer and that their answer is right. We write our posts as "this is THE word and no one can possibly refute it", but the trick is - since the other side also feels they're right, they then post a retort that simply cannot be argued with and must be right. And so on and so forth.

I do thank everyone for staying mostly civil and allowing this thread to live. I understand that it's annoying and frustrating wearing the kid gloves that these discussions require and I appreciate you all trying to do so.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:59 AM   #84
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Truthfully, I think that applies to both sides and frankly, it's what bothers me most about these discussions - each side generally comes into these discussions with preconceived notions that they have the answer and that their answer is right. We write our posts as "this is THE word and no one can possibly refute it", but the trick is - since the other side also feels they're right, they then post a retort that simply cannot be argued with and must be right. And so on and so forth.

I do thank everyone for staying mostly civil and allowing this thread to live. I understand that it's annoying and frustrating wearing the kid gloves that these discussions require and I appreciate you all trying to do so.
Lot's of the pot calling the kettle black type stuff going on in these threads from both sides, huh? All I know is that no one has been able to give a straight answer. I tend to believe, for various reasons, that the GVWR numbers are somewhat "mystical". While others tend to believe they are very "concrete". I'm not saying there isn't some structural engineering consideration going on- but I think other factors are at play. I would love for someone like these purported parts guys to simply say: "Here is the part number for the Max Tow spring. It is rated at xxxx pounds. Here is the part number for the regular spring. It is only rated at xxxx pounds." Not sure why they can't do this if that's the case. I understand that Ford part numbers vary somewhat- but wouldn't all Max Tow springs be rated the same? Just give me any part number that is Max Tow specific. Regardless of the ideological accusations being hurled my way, I would LOVE to know EXACTLY what the differences are, if any. I am seeking information and the truth, and I refuse to just blindly accept the "THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BLAH BLAH BLAH" answers with no evidence to support it.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:18 AM   #85
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I am seeking information and the truth, and I refuse to just blindly accept the "THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BLAH BLAH BLAH" answers with no evidence to support it.
Until you're able to corner the group of folks at Ford (engineers, marketers and lawyers) who were involved in the declaration of GVWRs, you're not going to get the evidence that you want.

You're the one who wants the details, so I'm not sure why you would put the onus on the parts guys to prove you wrong. I would think that you want to prove yourself right; not to have someone prove you wrong. If you want proved right, I think it would be up to you to do the leg work to find 2 identical trucks and then work with someone in the know to go part-by-part to find the exact differences.

In fact, I think until either of the 2 things above happen- these general "concept" posts are going to be lobbed back and forth and neither side is going to take an iota of an inch towards the other side's opinion. (shrugs)
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:27 AM   #86
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Until you're able to corner the group of folks at Ford (engineers, marketers and lawyers) who were involved in the declaration of GVWRs, you're not going to get the evidence that you want.

You're the one who wants the details, so I'm not sure why you would put the onus on the parts guys to prove you wrong. I would think that you want to prove yourself right; not to have someone prove you wrong. If you want proved right, I think it would be up to you to do the leg work to find 2 identical trucks and then work with someone in the know to go part-by-part to find the exact differences.

In fact, I think until either of the 2 things above happen- these general "concept" posts are going to be lobbed back and forth and neither side is going to take an iota of an inch towards the other side's opinion. (shrugs)
The parts guys can give the actual part no.s and specs. You can't see it from looking under 2 trucks what springs, etc are installed. Like I've said numerous times, the stickers are put there by lawyers, not engineers.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:34 AM   #87
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The parts guys can give the actual part no.s and specs. You can't see it from looking under 2 trucks what springs, etc are installed. Like I've said numerous times, the stickers are put there by lawyers, not engineers.
Honestly, I think it's a combination that I stated - lawyers, marketers and engineers. The engineers are going to publish solid data supporting their numbers. The marketers are going to want to publish as high of a number as possible. And the lawyers are going to want to publish as low of a number as possible.

Given the references to "magical tow dust" and things like the Chrysler from 2009 or whatever it was that was earlier mentioned- I think everyone has a hand in the numbers.

I just don't quite understand what we're trying to prove or who we're trying convince. If we're trying to convince me to tow over specs, it's not going to happen. I've made my decisions. If we're trying convince you to tow under ratings, that too isn't going to happen.

If dustman wants definitive proof, then I think dustman should be doing the legwork to make a case based on actual data from Ford's people who are in the know. Not throwing a volley out there saying, "here's some anecdotal evidence that must be right- prove me wrong."
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:39 AM   #88
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actually, I have located one...in the state of texas...
LOL I am impressed Orion!
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:40 AM   #89
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:43 AM   #90
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About where this topic has landed after reading all the post between conspiracy theory folks and guys who actually work in/around the Ford parts business.
GREAT Graphic Cajun!! -- and so true! Bottom line for me is:
5er weighs in at 8.5K ready to camp
F150 HD Tow/HD pkg tows it like a dream
I am happy
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Life is good
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