Weight Police- Answer this...

[dustman_stx]

I think the answer is "Good point. Doesn't make any sense. I don't know." Some will also likely say "Doesn't matter. It is what it is and if you wanna be legal you better follow it." (I've never liked someone declaring something IS without a reason.) But I'd like to know if anyone can come to any other conclusion regarding this:

2013 Ford F150 with tow package gives a GVWR of 7200#. Add the max trailer tow package and GVWR goes to 7700#. There is NOTHING on the truck that affects payload capacity. You get tow mirrors and brake controller for sure, but both are easily optioned to the truck and have nothing to do with payload. There are some that claim slightly better trans cooler and slightly different steering ratio. Also I believe that the gear ratio goes to 3.73, which is already the case on many trucks, specifically the FX4's. None of these things has anything to do with payload. It is perfectly clear that GVWR is NOT anything determined from an engineering standpoint. Same axles, same springs and shocks, same brakes, same frame. As far as I am concerned it is a marketing and liability issue. Has little to do with the safety or capability, otherwise you couldn't just slap some mirrors on a truck (TBC comes in many other packages) and raise the GVWR by 500 lbs.

For clarification: Some people confuse the max trailer tow with the max payload. Two different animals- max payload has a different axle, springs, wheels, tires, etc.

What say you?

[Rugged Brown]

It's a guide which allows some percantage of latitude. One pound over and your illegal? Probably not.

[KMP44]

I had assumed it was some type of change with shocks/springs. You're right, doesn't make sense that the rear axle ratio change would affect the payload. Tow mirrors, while very nice to have, also wouldn't affect payload.

You have raised an interesting question....

Either way, my conclusion was that the max payload package was a requirement for me on my next truck. Whether you are at 7200 or 7700 lbs, pulling a decent size trailer with all our gear, its very easy to max out the payload long before we max out towing capacity or CGWR.

[dustman_stx]

The issue I ran into was availability of the max trailer tow. Everyone likes to quote the MSRP difference of only $500. But the difference was going to be several thousand for me. There was only a handful of max trailer tow within hundreds of miles, and the dealers wouldn't even trade them. The dealership I was working with knows me and I was getting an exceptional deal. I wasn't willing to pay a few thousand extra to get a bigger number on a sticker for the exact same truck. Mine came with the TBC and I added the mirrors. Now I've got the max trailer tow, but I didn't pay for the bigger number on the sticker.

[TURBS]

Originally Posted by kmp44

its very easy to max out the payload long before we max out towing capacity or cgwr.

totally agree!

[ependydad]

I guess it speaks to the "weakest link" principal that Herk has talked about before. The GVWR and thus payload has to come from the minimum of something. The question is- what is it?

How positive are you that you know what goes into the maximum tow package over a truck without it? If I'm going to stand and make an argument for/against something, I'd want to know from Ford directly (and not a dealer- I've found that most of the salesman are as best-guess-educated as the rest of us).

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by Rugged Brown

It's a guide which allows some percantage of latitude. One pound over and your illegal? Probably not.

Some states, Massachusetts may be one IIRC, actually state that you aren't illegal until 1,000 over GVWR. Most states you can find no information about passenger vehicle GVWR legality.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by ependydad

I guess it speaks to the "weakest link" principal that Herk has talked about before. The GVWR and thus payload has to come from the minimum of something. The question is- what is it?

I think it is either the warranty department or the legal department.

Originally Posted by ependydad

How positive are you that you know what goes into the maximum tow package over a truck without it? If I'm going to stand and make an argument for/against something, I'd want to know from Ford directly (and not a dealer- I've found that most of the salesman are as best-guess-educated as the rest of us).

Very true about the dealers. I usually end up educating them about their trucks. There is a good bit of discussion out there about the difference and many accounts of the information I presented as valid. Also, per the Ford lit. and when going through the online build process, there is no other difference. The differences that account for the increase on the max payload are clearly outlined by Ford in both of those places.

[dustman_stx]

I will add that there is a difference in the hitch and how the bumper attaches to it with the max tow. But all of the hitches are Class IV which actually have a 1400/14000 inherent rating from what I read. My cousin fell asleep and ran into a parked semi with an empty cattle trailer attached to his Tundra. Obviously totaled the truck. The trailer folded the frame up like a taco, but the entire hitch assembly was still fine, including the ball. The hitch assembly is NOT a weak link.

[Herk7769]

If you have a question "Specific to YOUR truck," the Ford engineering department should talk to you. If they are anything like GM, they will not be interested in talking to you in "general terms" since every VIN has a specific build.

Ran into this in conversations with GM regarding my 2500HD.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by herk7769

If you have a question "Specific to YOUR truck," the Ford engineering department should talk to you. If they are anything like GM, they will not be interested in talking to you in "general terms" since every VIN has a specific build.

Ran into this in conversations with GM regarding my 2500HD.

Herk,

I value your input, but I'm thinking you missed the point. The bigger issue I'm addressing is the validity of the GVWR altogether. We like to think (and preach) it is a number derived from engineering standards that is concrete (limited by component strength and longevity) but the evidence I see contradicts that. And I'm fairly confident I'm not going to get someone at Ford to tell me "There's no real difference that explains the higher GVWR. We just want you to buy the max tow to get it."

[Herk7769]

If conversations with your manufacturers engineering department would not change your mind; I seriously doubt anything said here would have much effect. Unless, of course, it reinforced your obviously strongly held belief...

[Goomph]

I am thinking out loud ...

That 500 Lbs extra have to be moved ... and probably when they design the truck they have certain parameters, goals to move the allowed payload in a safe/predictable way/time a certain distance without creating wear tear beyond a certain allowable amount. You go to 3.73 from 3.55, you are basically decreasing the amount of force required to move the same load for the existing components. Now that you have some spare power, you can carry another 500 Lbs ....


The only explanation I can come up with ... I am not saying that is what it is, just thinking loud ...

Same is true with the 17" vs 18" wheels and towing capacity. You go up to 18" wheels, you lose 500 lbs of towing capacity (I know not payload). There has got to be some mathematics somewhere we are not aware of. Maybe wishful thinking .... But I doubt it seeing how they charge more for 18" wheels ...

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by herk7769

If conversations with your manufacturers engineering department would not change your mind; I seriously doubt anything said here would have much effect. Unless, of course, it reinforced your obviously strongly held belief...

I believe I could respond in kind. No one has ever been able to give any concrete evidence that GVWR is determined by engineers applying consistent mechanical testing. On the contrary, much evidence and logic indicates that there are other factors at play here such as legal issues and economics, yet many refuse to admit that GVWR is not derived from strict engineering standards. I have just provided evidence that, in this case, Ford has issued an increased payload of ~7% with no real change in the structural integrity of the vehicle. Do you refuse to acknowledge that? If so, I think all can see who is holding to a belief here.

Mods- Can we please have a "spirited" debate here without shutting this thing down???

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by Goomph

I am thinking out loud ...

That 500 Lbs extra have to be moved ... and probably when they design the truck they have certain parameters, goals to move the allowed payload in a safe/predictable way/time a certain distance without creating wear tear beyond a certain allowable amount. You go to 3.73 from 3.55, you are basically decreasing the amount of force required to move the same load for the existing components. Now that you have some spare power, you can carry another 500 Lbs ....


The only explanation I can come up with ... I am not saying that is what it is, just thinking loud ...

Same is true with the 17" vs 18" wheels and towing capacity. You go up to 18" wheels, you lose 500 lbs of towing capacity (I know not payload). There has got to be some mathematics somewhere we are not aware of. Maybe wishful thinking .... But I doubt it seeing how they charge more for 18" wheels ...

Goomph, you can get 3.73's without the max tow. They are standard on the FX4, I believe, which still has the 7200# GVWR. Gear ratio is not the deciding factor.

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

Mods- Can we please have a "spirited" debate here without shutting this thing down???

(I'm not saying nor implying that anything has happened in this thread thus far.)

It's not us that shut things down- we just click the button. It's the posts, deletes and edits that have to happen that cause us to click it. You all are in control of your destiny.

If everyone keeps it above the belt without snide comments or personal sniping or venturing off into restricted topics, the thread could stay open indefinitely. Unfortunately, history has shown us that this seems to be a topic that people get "all riled up" over and emotions flare and we ultimately are forced to click the button.

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by ependydad

(I'm not saying nor implying that anything has happened in this thread thus far.)

It's not us that shut things down- we just click the button. It's the posts, deletes and edits that have to happen that cause us to click it. You all are in control of your destiny.

If everyone keeps it above the belt without snide comments or personal sniping or venturing off into restricted topics, the thread could stay open indefinitely. Unfortunately, history has shown us that this seems to be a topic that people get "all riled up" over and emotions flare and we ultimately are forced to click the button.

Point taken.

[Goomph]

For all we know FX4 is heavier than a regular XLT and that is where the weight goes to, so your payload is the same ...

If I recall correctly , max tow gets you beefier front axles and a heavy duty alternator, and a bigger transmission cooler.

Only the engineers who decide the numbers will have all the facts. I am not going to discuss if it is the engineers or the sales or marketing people who arbitrarily decide the numbers.

There is also discussion of certain vehicles, allegedly the same exact vehicle, having a much lower tow rating here, but much higher in Europe. Only the manufacturer would be able to explain the difference.

Having said that, I am out, You seem to just want to have a discussion, I agree with Herk, nothing said here will probably change your mind.

Maybe there are legal reasons on why they restrict limits on paper, or marketing reasons behind it. It is a free market, we can vote with out wallet ....

[dustman_stx]

Originally Posted by Goomph

For all we know FX4 is heavier than a regular XLT and that is where the weight goes to, so your payload is the same ...

If I recall correctly , max tow gets you beefier front axles and a heavy duty alternator, and a bigger transmission cooler.

Only the engineers who decide the numbers will have all the facts. I am not going to discuss if it is the engineers or the sales or marketing people who arbitrarily decide the numbers.

There is also discussion of certain vehicles, allegedly the same exact vehicle, having a much lower tow rating here, but much higher in Europe. Only the manufacturer would be able to explain the difference.

Having said that, I am out, You seem to just want to have a discussion, I agree with Herk, nothing said here will probably change your mind.

Maybe there are legal reasons on why they restrict limits on paper, or marketing reasons behind it. It is a free market, we can vote with out wallet ....

Discussion is about GVWR. The weight of the FX4 is therefore irrelevant. Both are 7200# without the max tow- at least in 145" form. No axle changes- this from people that have actually looked at the numbers on a max tow and regular tow side by side. Alternator and trans cooler have no impact on payload. Absolutely I want to have a discussion.

Edit: I just realized you criticized me for wanting to "have a discussion" on a forum. That right there is funny!!!!

[ependydad]

Originally Posted by dustman_stx

Alternator and trans cooler have no impact on payload.

Why wouldn't they? Trust me, I know little about trucks- not even enough to be dangerous.

But, if the engine has to work harder to carry more weight- why wouldn't an upgraded alternator and transmission cooler allow the engine to handle the weight better (running cooler + having the more power it needs to consume or, at least, recover better while it does).

Again, the whole "weakest link" thing.