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Old 11-15-2013, 02:43 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ependydad View Post
Why wouldn't they? Trust me, I know little about trucks- not even enough to be dangerous.

But, if the engine has to work harder to carry more weight- why wouldn't an upgraded alternator and transmission cooler allow the engine to handle the weight better (running cooler + having the more power it needs to consume or, at least, recover better while it does).

Again, the whole "weakest link" thing.
Carrying 200 extra pounds ON the truck is infinitely less work for the engine than pulling an 8000 camper behind it- which the 7200GVWR truck is rated to do. You could make the point that without the extra cooling you wouldn't need to pull a travel trailer at the max AND haul the extra 500 in the truck- but that requirement should be addressed by lowering the GCVWR. Alternator obviously just charges the battery, so that wouldn't affect payload. I am almost certain the upgraded alternator with max tow is a myth as it isn't listed anywhere and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else.
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:53 PM   #22
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I am almost certain the upgraded alternator with max tow is a myth as it isn't listed anywhere and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else.
So, doesn't that give credence to you don't completely know what the changes are with the max. tow package?

However, couldn't the larger alternator have to do with the extra demands of a larger trailer that requires brakes and therefore has a battery? (Again, remember my ignorance of how this stuff works.)
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Old 11-15-2013, 02:59 PM   #23
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I think the answer is "Good point. Doesn't make any sense. I don't know." Some will also likely say "Doesn't matter. It is what it is and if you wanna be legal you better follow it." (I've never liked someone declaring something IS without a reason.) But I'd like to know if anyone can come to any other conclusion regarding this:

2013 Ford F150 with tow package gives a GVWR of 7200#. Add the max trailer tow package and GVWR goes to 7700#. There is NOTHING on the truck that affects payload capacity. You get tow mirrors and brake controller for sure, but both are easily optioned to the truck and have nothing to do with payload. There are some that claim slightly better trans cooler and slightly different steering ratio. Also I believe that the gear ratio goes to 3.73, which is already the case on many trucks, specifically the FX4's. None of these things has anything to do with payload. It is perfectly clear that GVWR is NOT anything determined from an engineering standpoint. Same axles, same springs and shocks, same brakes, same frame. As far as I am concerned it is a marketing and liability issue. Has little to do with the safety or capability, otherwise you couldn't just slap some mirrors on a truck (TBC comes in many other packages) and raise the GVWR by 500 lbs.

For clarification: Some people confuse the max trailer tow with the max payload. Two different animals- max payload has a different axle, springs, wheels, tires, etc.

What say you?
With MAX HAUL and MAX TRAILERING the max towing weight is 11,200# I have one and I love it. Beats anything else I have ever had.

All come with a standard tow package. Do not confuse MAX TOW with it. Max Haul does give you beefyer springs and axles as mentioned. Mine is a 2013. Try it you would not believe the towing power and lack of overheating in both the engine and transmission. You would expect that with three radiators and you get it.

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Old 11-15-2013, 03:07 PM   #24
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I have one thing to say. Compare the 2 physical trucks, side by side, and then see what may be different on the 2. Then again, look at what I posted about magic towing dust.
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ependydad View Post
So, doesn't that give credence to you don't completely know what the changes are with the max. tow package?

However, couldn't the larger alternator have to do with the extra demands of a larger trailer that requires brakes and therefore has a battery? (Again, remember my ignorance of how this stuff works.)
The alternator has no idea what trailer is behind it, it merely charges the battery(s).
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:24 PM   #26
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The alternator has no idea what trailer is behind it, it merely charges the battery(s).
Understood. But, does the fact that you now have 12v going back to an extra battery mean that having a bigger alternator could keep up better with charging 2 batteries instead of 1?
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:28 PM   #27
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Understood. But, does the fact that you now have 12v going back to an extra battery mean that having a bigger alternator could keep up better with charging 2 batteries instead of 1?
That's all it does, doesn't take long to recharge the truck & trailer batteries. The bigger alternator just does it faster. The old generators did the same, it just took them longer.
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:38 PM   #28
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Bigger alternator provides more amps/hour .. and how does it do that, by taking more power from the engine (meaning it probably has bigger coils/shaft to turn, bigger magnets, thus more friction and more power required through the belt to turn it) . There goes some of the power which could be used to haul weight ... Either on the truck or being towed. Miniscule maybe, yes, but it does change the equation ...And it is also probably a lbs or two heavier than the regular alternator ?
Rolling your window down saps more power than the bigger alternator. The power draw of a larger alternator is miniscule.
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:47 PM   #29
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That's all it does, doesn't take long to recharge the truck & trailer batteries. The bigger alternator just does it faster. The old generators did the same, it just took them longer.
Ok, so the theory is there that they picked a bigger alternator to be part of this "max tow package" in order to more quickly recharge batteries assuming that with the higher towing capacity means a trailer with brakes and therefore a battery. (Holy run on sentence, Batman!)

Anyway- pure guessing on my part, of course. It's remotely possible that they increased the payload capacity due to that. Continues to give credence to both sides of the fence - that the concept is the "weakest link". But also to the "exceed your ratings" side in that, it's hard to believe that the stock alternator can only supply enough power to the single battery in the truck.

(Shrugs)
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:02 PM   #30
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I have one thing to say. Compare the 2 physical trucks, side by side, and then see what may be different on the 2. Then again, look at what I posted about magic towing dust.
Or maybe magic ANTI-towing dust where they downgrade the ratings. There is evidence this happens from models sold here and overseas. I have read several accounts of them being compared side by side and the only differences noted were those of the different hitch and tow mirrors, with the IBC being standard. I looked at many window stickers recently- many with regular tow, max tow and max payload. No structural differences that would indicate increased payload with max tow. Structural differences noted on max payload.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:05 PM   #31
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Ok, so the theory is there that they picked a bigger alternator to be part of this "max tow package" in order to more quickly recharge batteries assuming that with the higher towing capacity means a trailer with brakes and therefore a battery. (Holy run on sentence, Batman!)

Anyway- pure guessing on my part, of course. It's remotely possible that they increased the payload capacity due to that. Continues to give credence to both sides of the fence - that the concept is the "weakest link". But also to the "exceed your ratings" side in that, it's hard to believe that the stock alternator can only supply enough power to the single battery in the truck.

(Shrugs)
The cost is insignificant in the build of a stock vs "big" alternator, but it seems to be a big advertising benefit. The batteries can be charged with one of the old original 45 amp alternators, it just takes longer.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:05 PM   #32
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So, doesn't that give credence to you don't completely know what the changes are with the max. tow package?
Well, I don't have a window sticker from each in front of me, so I didn't want to speak in absolutes. And none of the information I've read anywhere has ever mentioned anything about a larger alternator. Since this won't suffice, I'll say it definitively- there is NO upgraded alternator with MaxTow- and wait for someone to prove me wrong.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:45 PM   #33
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Well, I don't have a window sticker from each in front of me, so I didn't want to speak in absolutes. And none of the information I've read anywhere has ever mentioned anything about a larger alternator. Since this won't suffice, I'll say it definitively- there is NO upgraded alternator with MaxTow- and wait for someone to prove me wrong.
I think that's a little backwards of an approach. Your initial post, IMO, was about the increased payload capacity due to X, Y and Z. If you're going to draw the line in the sand, I don't think it's up to us to prove you wrong in what is/isn't included with these packages. Otherwise, we're just guessing...
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:09 PM   #34
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I believe I could respond in kind. No one has ever been able to give any concrete evidence that GVWR is determined by engineers applying consistent mechanical testing. On the contrary, much evidence and logic indicates that there are other factors at play here such as legal issues and economics, yet many refuse to admit that GVWR is not derived from strict engineering standards. I have just provided evidence that, in this case, Ford has issued an increased payload of ~7% with no real change in the structural integrity of the vehicle. Do you refuse to acknowledge that? If so, I think all can see who is holding to a belief here.

Mods- Can we please have a "spirited" debate here without shutting this thing down???
So, here is the thing...

"No one has ever been able to give any concrete evidence that GVWR is determined by engineers applying consistent mechanical testing. On the contrary, much evidence and logic indicates that there are other factors at play here such as legal issues and economics, yet many refuse to admit that GVWR is not derived from strict engineering standards. "

Why would they have to? The manufacturer sets that number based on their factors; not the consumer's wishes.

"I have just provided evidence that, in this case, Ford has issued an increased payload of ~7% with no real change in the structural integrity of the vehicle."

I missed that. What "evidence" as to "no real change in the structural integrity" was provided in any of these posts? What I saw was anecdotal and comparisons of optional equipment specs with no correlation to other modifications that could have been by the engineers to accommodate those options and increased payload.

Without access to the shop drawings used by the manufacturer's assembly line, it is impossible to know whether larger and/or higher grade bolts were used (for example) or if other nonspecific mods were done as part of the Max Tow Upgrade.

So, from my perspective; I DON'T KNOW and rely on the manufacturer's engineering and (I will throw you a bone) legal/warranty staff to determine the maximum load my equipment can safely handle without premature wear or failure.
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:55 PM   #35
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So, from my perspective; I DON'T KNOW and rely on the manufacturer's engineering and (I will throw you a bone) legal/warranty staff to determine the maximum load my equipment can safely handle without premature wear or failure.
Thanks Herk,

We can all make assumptions... but what you state is the truth and the best answer to the GVWR debate given what reliable and accurate information is readily available to consumers.

I don't know either.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:15 PM   #36
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Ok. I dont know specifically on fords, but on gm vehicle, difference in gvrw will have any or all of the mentioned differences.
1. Brake sizing- you will have to remove the wheels and use a measuring devise for rotors, drum or pad/shoe size differences.
2. Sometimes # ofpistons in the caliper
3. U joint sizes
4. Heavier axle shaftes and or # of splines
5. Hub bearing / or axle shaft bearings
- some have completely different axle housings that may be difficult to differentiate without micrometers or reading casting numbers
6. Transmission sizes that may be slightly heavier rated with different programming
7. Some trucks will have a completely different "tune" or program as another truck with the same drivetrain- usually on commercial trucks but is used to increase longevity from higher percentage of "duty or load" cycle.
8. Wheels sizes do make a difference, some just are not rated as high as well as tires.
9. Spring and or torsion rates- gm had about 7 or so different rated torsion bars and without knowing the part number you wouldnt know the rate, also about 5-6 different indexes on torsion keys.
10. Shocks.

But like stated before some of this you will never know unless you look up the vin or look at actual part numbers. You wont be able to see a u joint difference of 1.235" vs 1.756" jumping from truck to truck unless you have a pair of mics.
There are more differences out there but with out vins its really hard to compare.
- we have to order most of our parts with the vin to guarantee we get the correct part- but still there is errors from time to time.
-op good luck on your quest!
Talk to a dealer parts guy for real differences or you can just look at online parts store catalogs- look at brakes and ujoints, thats where alot of changes are!
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:16 PM   #37
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Where does the GVWR come from??????

Everyone is always talking weights GVWR, GCWR and Payload (CCC). I always read, “oh it’s a made up number”, “a 2500 can haul or carry the same as a 3500”.

Here is what I have found and where, IMHO I think the weight stickers on our door jambs come from.

Below are excerpts from 49 CFR.

Truck-camper loading.

49 CFR 575.103 Truck-camper loading.

Here is how I read it.

(a) Scope. This section requires manufacturers of slide-in campers to affix to each camper a label that contains information relating to identification and proper loading of the camper and to provide more detailed loading information in the owner's manual. This section also requires manufacturers of trucks that would accommodate slide-in campers to specify the cargo weight ratings and the longitudinal limits within which the center of gravity for the cargo weight rating should be located.

(b) Purpose. The purpose of this section is to provide information that can be used to reduce overloading and improper load placement in truck-camper combinations and unsafe truck- camper matching in order to prevent accidents resulting from the adverse effects of these conditions on vehicle steering and braking. (c) Application. This section applies to slide-in campers and to trucks that are capable of accommodating slide- in campers.

(c) Application. This section applies to slide-in campers and to trucks that are capable of accommodating slide- in campers.

(d) Definitions. Camper means a structure designed to be mounted in the cargo area of a truck, or attached to an incomplete vehicle with motive power, for the purpose of providing shelter for persons. Cargo Weight Rating means the value specified by the manufacturer as the cargo-carrying capacity, in pounds or kilograms, of a vehicle, exclusive of the weight of occupants in designated seating positions, computed as 68 kilograms or 150 pounds times the number of designated seating positions.

When the truck-camper is loaded, drive to a scale and weigh on the front and on the rear wheels separately to determine axle loads. The load on an axle should not exceed its gross axle weight rating (GAWR). The total of the axle loads should not exceed the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). These weight ratings are given on the vehicle certification label that is located on the left side of the vehicle, normally on the dash panel, hinge pillar, door latch post, or door edge next to the driver on trucks manufactured on or after January 1, 1972. If weight ratings are exceeded, move or remove items to bring all weights below the ratings.”


(2) Trucks. (i) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2)(ii) of this section, each manufacturer of a truck that is capable of accommodating a slide-in camper shall provide to the purchaser in the owner's manual or other document delivered with the truck, in writing and in the English language, the information specified in paragraphs (e)(2)(i) (A) through (E) of this section.

(A) A picture showing the manufacturer's recommended longitudinal center of gravity zone for the cargo weight rating in the form illustrated in Figure 4. The boundaries of the zone shall be such that when a slide-in camper equal in weight to the truck's cargo weight rating is installed, no GAWR of the truck is exceeded.

(B) The truck's cargo weight rating.

(C) The statements: “When the truck is used to carry a slide-in camper, the total cargo load of the truck consists of the manufacturer's camper weight figure, the weight of installed additional camper equipment not included in the manufacturer's camper weight figure, the weight of camper cargo, and the weight of passengers in the camper. The total cargo load should not exceed the truck's cargo weight rating and the camper's center of gravity should fall within the truck's recommended center of gravity zone when installed.”

(D) A picture showing the proper match of a truck and slide-in camper in the form illustrated in Figure 3.

(E) The statements: “Secure loose items to prevent weight shifts that could affect the balance of your vehicle. When the truck camper is loaded, drive to a scale and weigh on the front and on the rear wheels separately to determine axle loads. Individual axle loads should not exceed either of the gross axle weight ratings (GAWR). The total of the axle loads should not exceed the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). These ratings are given on the vehicle certification label that is located on the left side of the vehicle, normally the dash, hinge pillar, door latch post, or door edge next to the driver. If weight ratings are exceeded, move or remove items to bring all weights below the ratings.”


Okay, they GM, Ford, Dodge pay people a lot more than I make to comply with Federal regulations. So I believe they have a very good reason to set the GVWR and CCC where they do for a particular truck.

Oh by the way I checked inside my glove box and my CCC is 1763 lbs. Guess what 7500 lbs base weight, GVWR 9200 lbs, = 1700 lbs CCC.

Okay I’ve said my piece, now I’ll just sit back and chuckle at the comments.

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Old 11-15-2013, 07:21 PM   #38
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...You wont be able to see a u joint difference of 1.235" vs 1.756" jumping from truck to truck unless you have a pair of mics...
1/2" difference is easily seen, you sure don't need a micrometer to see the difference.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:32 PM   #39
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1/2" difference is easily seen, you sure don't need a micrometer to see the difference.
Neil, I think you might have missed his point.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:35 PM   #40
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Neil, I think you might have missed his point.
No, I agree with everything he said with the exception of that one sentence. lol
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