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Old 04-14-2015, 10:57 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
with todays tongue weights, id be concerned about what could be something north of a 300 lbs one dimensional point load on a bathroom scale. how about a 2x2 in place of a pipe, so nothing moves, and a board to distribute load on the scale. this technique was developed before slides when average weights were closer to 400-500 lbs. unless, of course, the bathroom scale has evolved as well to accomodate the increase in weight...NVM
Easily fixed by getting a longer 4 x 4, pipe is used to eliminate possible binding.

10' between pipes would let you weight a 2000# tongue with a 0-250# scale.
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Old 04-14-2015, 12:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
with todays tongue weights, id be concerned about what could be something north of a 300 lbs one dimensional point load on a bathroom scale. how about a 2x2 in place of a pipe, so nothing moves, and a board to distribute load on the scale. this technique was developed before slides when average weights were closer to 400-500 lbs. unless, of course, the bathroom scale has evolved as well to accomodate the increase in weight...NVM
Like OC said, knowing "about" what your tongue weight should be will help you decide how long the 4x4 should be. The key is to place the tongue exactly 1 foot from the first pipe and 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6 feet to the pipe on the scale. Multiply the total distance between the pipes by the scale reading.

Using about 150 pounds as the target weight on a typical 300 pound bathroom scale:

2 feet - 450 pounds of tongue weight (TW)
3 feet - 600 pounds TW
4 feet - 750 pounds TW
5 feet - 900 pounds TW
6 feet - 1050 pounds TW

That would be about the biggest I would use this method for an 8 foot 4x4; much longer than that might be difficult to maneuver. Remember you will have about 6 inches of overlap on the pipes and 1 foot from the fixed pipe to the tongue.

Using the full 300 pounds of scale makes a maximum TW of 2100 pounds using this method.

I am not aware of too many WD hitch campers requiring a 2000 pound tongue.

Remember a 2000 pound tongue equates to a 16,600 pound travel trailer (using an optimum tow ratio of 12%). For a comparison, a typical new F350 Turbo Diesel SRW can pull a conventional trailer up to a maximum of 14,000 pounds.

2015 Ford Super Duty | View Towing Specifications | Ford.com

While I am sure you can find several travel trailer examples above 17,000 pounds, the great majority of travel trailer pullers can safely use this method.
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Old 04-14-2015, 12:19 PM   #43
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My bathroon scale is unreliable. It always overstates the weight on it!
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Old 04-14-2015, 12:54 PM   #44
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Ferguson65,

"Etrailer has this wrong. Trailer tongue weight, and trailer weight limits printed on the hitch are the capacity for the receiver hitch itself. Anything in the bed of the truck/ suv goes against payload.

Putting a ton of weight behind the truck axle will surely amplify squat and make the setup on the WDH bars different, but it doesn't take away from hitch capacity."

I stand corrected, I am changing my own opinion from previous research. I called Curt mfg today and talked to a hitch tech about this. The weight capacity of their hitch is the actual tongue weight on the hitch, including the hitch itself and spring bars. Cargo weight or other behind the axle do not get added to this. I will make a presumption that this is likely true for all hitch ratings. Thank you for your correction. That gives me more comfortable margin as well since I have more GAWR and GVWR capacity on my truck than the trailer tongue is pressing down on. That makes me smile....God I love these forums!
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Old 04-14-2015, 04:27 PM   #45
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Zolin, the weight limit that Curt is talking about is probably the weight that the "receiver" can handle, which would include the weight of the hitch head, the spring bars and the trailer's tongue.

As noted by others, ultimately you are trying not to exceed:
GAWR (all axles on the TV and trailer)
GVWR (both TV and trailer)
GCVWR of the TV
which is why it's best to go to a scale to measure all the axles fully loaded and ready to camp. For those who are really anal about this, if you have access to scales that can measure each wheel, you can even try to balance side-to-side.

There is certainly some safety margin built in to the published ratings but you'll have to decide what you're comfortable with if you exceed any ratings.

With all the talk on here about "China bombs" we should all be hitting the scales to make sure we aren't overloading our tires.
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Old 04-14-2015, 06:56 PM   #46
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Weighed 6 separate times at 3 certified scales. All axles under gross, as well as the truck and trailer GVWR. In addition, the GCWR is still under gross, which is 15,500 max for me. My limitation has been loading cargo in the bed. Still can put some cargo in the bed without pushing me over gross. My trailer axles have 7800 lbs lbs on them when loaded by the hitch, 7600 lbs when not. 3840 lbs loaded on drive axle with a GAWR of 4050.
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Old 04-14-2015, 06:56 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Zolin View Post
Ferguson65,

"Etrailer has this wrong. Trailer tongue weight, and trailer weight limits printed on the hitch are the capacity for the receiver hitch itself. Anything in the bed of the truck/ suv goes against payload.

Putting a ton of weight behind the truck axle will surely amplify squat and make the setup on the WDH bars different, but it doesn't take away from hitch capacity."

I stand corrected, I am changing my own opinion from previous research. I called Curt mfg today and talked to a hitch tech about this. The weight capacity of their hitch is the actual tongue weight on the hitch, including the hitch itself and spring bars. Cargo weight or other behind the axle do not get added to this. I will make a presumption that this is likely true for all hitch ratings. Thank you for your correction. That gives me more comfortable margin as well since I have more GAWR and GVWR capacity on my truck than the trailer tongue is pressing down on. That makes me smile....God I love these forums!
Ok, so.......My vehicle, a 2005 Ford Excursion has a GVWRC of 9,200lbs. If I understand what you are saying, using my weights, with my spring bars on front axel was 4160 and rear axle was 4540 total 8700lbs. I Subtracted from my GVWRC 9,200-8700=500. But, not really, I don't include the tongue weight???? Or that tongue weight IS included in the GVWRC?
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:07 PM   #48
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Bill, you're way overthinking this.

With the trailer hitched and the spring bars on, the total of your TV's 2 axles is the TV's weight. Since the combined weight of your 2 axles is 8700#, which is under your GVWR, you're good as long as the weight of each axle doesn't exceed that axle's rating (GAWR). The tongue weight is included in all the axle weights, not extra.
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:24 PM   #49
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Bill, you're way overthinking this.

With the trailer hitched and the spring bars on, the total of your TV's 2 axles is the TV's weight. Since the combined weight of your 2 axles is 8700#, which is under your GVWR, you're good as long as the weight of each axle doesn't exceed that axle's rating (GAWR). The tongue weight is included in all the axle weights, not extra.
Hahaha, you are SO correct. Now with your explanation, using my weights with the spring bars on:

Font axle 4160 with a GAWR of 4700lbs = 540lbs spare weight
Rear axle 4540 with a GAWR of 5250lbs = 710lbs spare weight

My sticker on the truck says GVWR of 9,200lbs but adding up the GAWR of front and rear axle it adds up to:9950lbs. the difference between 9,950 - 9,200 =750lbs. Why the discrepancy??
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:33 PM   #50
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Bilcin,

The gross weight rating (GVWR)on your truck is the maximum weight your truck is rated to carry. This would have to include all passengers, fuel, cargo, weight on the vehicle from trailer, etc. You would include the tongue weight. So assuming the measured weight of the Excursion with the trailer attached and weight distribution applied is 8700 lbs. You are 500 lbs under (this assumes all passengers, fuel, cargo, etc were included when you weighed the Excursion.
To consider another factor; If you add this number (8700 lbs) to the measured weight of the trailer axles while attached to the hitch with the spring bars loaded you will obtain the Gross combination weight of both the loaded vehicle and trailer. This is another number to consider never exceeding. Your Excursion should show this maximum value as (GCWR).

In my case the total loaded weight of my truck and trailer combined is 14900 lbs. My GCWR is 15500 so I am close, but still under by 600 lbs.

The simple way to obtain this gross combination weight number is to look at the bottom number on the weigh ticket from a CAT scale while fully hooked up.
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:38 PM   #51
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Btw, this has been a very helpful thread I wish I had seen when making my considerations a year ago. Everybody's input has been invaluable!
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Old 04-14-2015, 07:59 PM   #52
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Bilcin,

The gross weight rating (GVWR)on your truck is the maximum weight your truck is rated to carry. This would have to include all passengers, fuel, cargo, weight on the vehicle from trailer, etc. You would include the tongue weight. So assuming the measured weight of the Excursion with the trailer attached and weight distribution applied is 8700 lbs. You are 500 lbs under (this assumes all passengers, fuel, cargo, etc were included when you weighed the Excursion.
To consider another factor; If you add this number (8700 lbs) to the measured weight of the trailer axles while attached to the hitch with the spring bars loaded you will obtain the Gross combination weight of both the loaded vehicle and trailer. This is another number to consider never exceeding. Your Excursion should show this maximum value as (GCWR).

In my case the total loaded weight of my truck and trailer combined is 14900 lbs. My GCWR is 15500 so I am close, but still under by 600 lbs.

The simple way to obtain this gross combination weight number is to look at the bottom number on the weigh ticket from a CAT scale while fully hooked up.
My GCWR is 20,000 and I am at 16,800 so I am well under this, so I think I am good with the way I have it hooked up. Thanks
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:01 PM   #53
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Btw, this has been a very helpful thread I wish I had seen when making my considerations a year ago. Everybody's input has been invaluable!
You are right! This thread taught me a lot and I want to thank ALL who took the time to help me understand what I thought I never would! This is a GREAT forum!
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:06 PM   #54
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Truck payload is everything in or on the truck (except for a full tank of gas and a 150 pound driver).

While actual tongue load is used to determine hitch load; the distributed tongue load is used when calculating payload. This is because a fraction of the actual tongue load gets shifted to the front and camper axles when the tension is applied to the WD hitch.

I hope you see this or someone else does, where did you get the 150 pound drive from? I read on the some F150 site this is NOT correct! I need a real answer on 150, as that would be perfect for me, I'm splitting hairs with my payload and another 150 would make me sleep better!!!!!!

I'm thinking about sending FORD an email about this!!!!!

Thanks,
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:15 PM   #55
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I just read my owner manual and for a 2013 Ford F150 you have to add the driver................






I can't wait for my ROO to come in so I can load it up and go to the scales!!!!!
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:17 PM   #56
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Bilcin, my truck is the same. The sum of the GAWRs is more than the GVWR. The GVWR will be based on the weakest part - axles, wheels, tires, chassis, suspension, etc. Of course some people swear the GVWR is set by lawyers.

In my case, I beefed up the suspension with an extra leaf spring and I replaced the stock P tires with LT tires, but neither increases my GVWR. It does improve the performance though.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:21 PM   #57
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TT233S, IMO, if all your other numbers are fine and you're over by 150# on the truck's weight, I wouldn't be concerned.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:32 PM   #58
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Bilcin,

The GCWR takes into consideration the weakest point in your drive train including suspension components, wheels, tires etc that came with that vehicle from the factory. Even though your GAWR may be more than the GVWR it technically does not mean you could "safely" exceed the GVWR. If your Excursion had come with a heavy duty payload option such as heavier wheels, tires, or heavy duty suspension components then your GVWR could have very well been placarded higher. This is a common practice where they will place axles on a vehicle that have a rating higher than what the vehicle's GVWR amounts to. Then, as that vehicle is built, it's GVWR gets limited to the suspension and drivetrain components that are installed on the assembly line.

My F150 is this way. The combination axle rating is higher than the GVWR of the truck. Could you exceed this GVWR ? Many do...I would not want to by very much, even though my suspension components have been upgraded, including air bags. It still does not give me "legal" authorization to do so however.
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:36 PM   #59
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"The GCWR takes into consideration the weakest point"

Oops I meant GVWR.....not GCWR
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:49 PM   #60
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By the etrailer determination, a pickup with a 1500 pound camper, could not pull a trailer.
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